The scuttlebut about town is that our Democratic First Selectwoman participated in Mike Alberts’ fundraiser at Camp Nahaco held in late August.
Shawn Johnston’s solution to education funding in the Quiet Corner: “…what the state ought to do is fully fund the existing PILOT payments to the towns. In addition, the state should reimburse towns for all qualifying nonprofit properties. The state’s education cost sharing formula is not a problem … the problem is the state has not fully funded the formula and has not kept pace with the normal escalation of education costs towns face. Don’t change the formula, fund it.” Shawn is the uncontested Democratic candidate and incumbent State Representative for Thompson, Putnam, and Killingly. This statement is taken from the Norwich Bull, Sunday, Oct. 29.
See the September 6 Cafe article on the PILOT program “…PILOT Program Should Be Explored…”
Readers can obtain the full copy of the Court’s decision from Ken Goldsmith (kengolds@charter.net), Chairman of the WPZC, or the Cafe (cafe_administrator @hotmail.com; a copy supplied to us by Ken)
‘Rock on, WPZC & WCC! Get With It IWWA! Be Heard Citizens of Woodstock!’
“The ruling also clearly dispels the incorrect belief often expressed by some current and former members of our land use boards and commissions that they do not have any discretion in how our regulations are applied. The common misstatement ‘If it meets our regulations, we must approve it’ is simply WRONG.”
I urge every member of the Woodstock land use boards and commissions (Planning and Zoning Commission, Inland Wetlands and Watercourse Agency, and Conservation Commission) and all citizens of Woodstock to read very closely the Superior Court decision regarding Douglas Builders appeal of the denial by Woodstock Planning and Zoning Commission (WPZC) of their proposed subdivision off Pulpit Rock Road, a town designated Scenic Road. There are numerous beneficial rulings contained within the court decision that are extremely important to a correct understanding of the appropriate authority that is vested in our land use commissions, as well as the rightful role of citizens concerns in land use matters.
A major issue addressed in the court decision was WPZC’s concern for traffic safety as affected by the subdivision proposed by Douglas Builders. The court cited Woodstock Planning and Zoning regulation Section 101 which provides: “Proposed streets shall be in harmony with existing and proposed streets and thoroughfares, especially as regards [to] safe intersections, and shall be so arranged and of such width as to provide an adequate and convenient system for present and prospective traffic needs.”
The court found that WPZC received testimony during the public hearings from local residents who expressed their concerns regarding traffic safety at the intersection of Pulpit Rock Road and the proposed subdivision. The WPZC also received letters from local residents addressing this issue. Additionally, members of the commission voiced their concerns with regard to safety. The court took note of comments of Commissioners Sandy Rotival, Fred Rich and Gail Dickinson made during the hearings regarding the safety issue. The Court cited Connecticut case law which says: “It is well established that lay members of a commission may rely on personal knowledge concerning matters readily within their knowledge, such as street safety. [United Jewish Center v. Brookfield, 78 Conn. App, 49, 57, 827 A.2d 11 (2003)]. The Court ruled that the WPZC commissioners could have relied on Ken Rapoport’s engineer’s testimony and report, letters and testimony of local residents, and their own personal knowledge with regard to traffic safety. Although Douglas Builders argued that it was improper for the commission to consider traffic safety issues, WPZC regulations Section 101 requires that “[p]roposed streets … be in harmony with existing and proposed streets and thoroughfares.” Additionally, Section 101 requires the commission to consider “safe intersections” in determining whether to approve a subdivision application. The Court cited another Connecticut case which held “It is well established that a [planning and] zoning commission has reasonable discretion in applying and interpreting its regulations.” [Graff v. Zoning Board of Appeals, 277 Conn. 667.] Therefore, the court found that the commission interpreted its regulations properly when it addressed traffic safety concerns.
This is a watershed holding for Woodstock, especially in areas where proposed subdivisions create traffic safety hazards. Our Planning and Zoning Commission should give close scrutiny to this issue. If they decide that a proposed subdivision would jeopardize the safety of Woodstock citizens, they can legally deny the application and they will be upheld in court. It is also important for all citizens of Woodstock to know that their concerns as neighbors to dangerous proposed subdivisions should be broadly and loudly voiced because our boards and commissions can and should take those concerns into account when they exercise their discretion. If, in denying a proposed subdivision, our boards and commissions rely on citizens’ opinions regarding safety, the courts will uphold the denial.
The ruling also clearly dispels the incorrect belief often expressed by some current and former members of our land use boards and commissions that they do not have any discretion in how our regulations are applied. The common misstatement “If it meets our regulations, we must approve it.” is simply WRONG.
In addition to the reference to the Graf case regarding “reasonable discretion” granted to boards/commissions, check out these quotations from the judge’s ruling in the Pulpit Rock Road decision:
“In applying the law to the facts of a particular case, the board is endowed with … liberal discretion, and its action is subject to review … only to determine whether it was unreasonable, arbitrary or illegal. … Moreover, the plaintiffs [those denied by the Planning and Zoning Commission] bear the burden of establishing that the board acted improperly.”
“In reviewing the actions of an administrative agency, a court is not permitted to substitute its judgment for that of the agency or to make factual determinations on its own.”
“In appeals from administrative zoning decisions, the [Planning and Zoning] commission’s conclusions will be invalidated only if they are not supported by substantial evidence in the record.”
The judge took all of these rulings from previously decided cases by higher Connecticut courts. Thus, it is clear that the land use boards and commissions of Woodstock do have substantial power to determine the correct application of their regulations and they do not have to live in fear that they will be questioned or overturned. It is their responsibility to apply their regulations and simple acceptance of the opinions of the developers’ engineers is an abdication of that responsibility.
There was another important issue decided in the Pulpit Rock Road case. The court found that WPZC acted properly when it considered conservation issues related to the vernal pool area. Some may have overlooked this issue, but when the original plans were filed for the Douglas Builders subdivision, a significant vernal pool was not even shown on the plans filed at town hall by Douglas Builders’engineer. Not until citizens examined this issue more closely was this slight of hand detected and the engineers then revised their plans. Ken Rapoport and neighbors had to fight hard to get this issue considered by the town. The Court took note of Rapoport’s expert’s testimony. Douglas Builders engineer’s offered no expert opinion on the issue, but rather, took the course of attacking Rapoport’s expert’s credentials. They did this before the town boards but not when they argued in court. The court chose to consider the substance of Rapoports’ expert’s opinions. Here is the excerpt of the judge’s ruling:
“Specifically, [Rapoport’s expert’s] report explains that changes to the site, proposed in the [Douglas Builders application], will lead to the following adverse environmental impacts: (1) canopy removal will lead to an increase in temperature and sedimentation; (2) the vernal pool will be ecologically disrupted as construction will encroach on the buffer zone around the vernal pool; (3) vehicular traffic will create chronic residual pollution; (4) lawn management through the use of pesticides and fertilizers will pollute the surface drainage system; (5) groundwater will be polluted by septage; (6) and an increase in impervious ground surfaces [paved roads]will lead to an elevation of runoff volumes of contaminants into Taylor Brook. Evidence in the record suggests that it is “reasonably likely that the project would cause unreasonable pollution, impairment or destruction of the public trust in the natural resource at issue.” General Statutes § 22a-19. Therefore, the commission did not act illegally, arbitrarily or in abuse of its discretion in allowing Rapoport to present evidence of reasonable and prudent alternatives to [Douglas Builders] proposed subdivision application.”
The Pulpit Rock Road PZC court decision also addresses Questioner’s belief that zoning regulations that restrict a property owner’s use of his/her land amount to a taking.
The decision states that Douglas Builders raised the argument (1) that the commission should have approved the plaintiff’s [Douglas Builders]application with modifications; (2) that the commission implemented its zoning moratorium prematurely in response to public pressure to deny the plaintiff’s [Douglas Builders] application and (3) that this amounted to a taking of the plaintiff’s [Douglas Builders] property without due process.
The Superior Court judge referred to the Connecticut case of Chevron Oil Co. v. Zoning Board of Appeals [170 Conn. 146,365 A.2d 387 (1976)], where the Connecticut Supreme Court stated, “zoning regulations, so far as they reasonably promote the public health, safety and welfare, are constitutional even though their effect may be to limit the exercise of private property rights.”
Thus, it would seem that Questioner’s argument that the application of our planning and zoning regulations in a way that restricts a property owner’s use of his/her land amounts to a taking is not valid when the application is one that promotes the health, safety and welfare of the citizens of Woodstock.
This is an extremely important decision for Woodstock. Town officials can stand up to developers and deny applications that threaten the general health, safety and welfare of Woodstock citizens. So, now they must do it. In case anyone hasn’t noticed, there have been a remarkable number of subdivision applications filed since the moratorium was lifted. It is common knowledge in the developers’ community that certain towns have boards that roll over when it comes to standing up for the integrity of their regulations. They are fearful of losing in court. Well, it looks pretty clear, that the first denial by a Woodstock land use commission of a subdivision application was upheld by the reviewing court on appeal. I say there should be more such denials so that we don’t get run over by development that is not in the interests of the town. Make developers adhere to the strictest interpretation of our regulations. If denial is not correct, at least force the developer to adhere to a reasonable and prudent alternative to exploiting environmentally sensitive areas which are located throughout Woodstock. The courts will support that approach without question.
Kudos to the Court!
Rock on Woodstock Planning and Zoning Commission and Woodstock Conservation Commission!
Get With It Woodstock Inland Wetlands And Watercourses Agency!
Be Heard Citizens of Woodstock!
This is truly excellent. This message needs to be seen by everyone, not just the readers of this Cafe’. Administrator, I will donate $100 towards the costs of publishing this letter in a newspaper or for a flyer for every mailbox in Woodstock! Charlie Snow and Mr. Very should be ashamed of themselves. Further, recall that it was also Charlie Snow and Mr. Very who came out against having an ethics ordinance for the town of Woodstock. The very people who did not want an ethics ordinance are the very people who supported the Douglas Builders by not doing enough to support our local P&Z ordinances which now, according to above, are supported by a court of law. At what price did their negligence cost the taxpayers of this town? (Perhaps the Villager will pick this up, Admin)
Oh, and isn’t Charlie Snow also the guy who keeps bringing back the idea of keeping the 9th graders back in the middle school?
The statement (quote) below also seems very relevant to the exercising of fiscal responsibility by the Board of Finance.
“The ruling also clearly dispels the incorrect belief often expressed by some current and former members of our… boards and commissions that they do not have any discretion in how our regulations are applied. The common misstatement ‘If it meets our regulations, we must approve it’ is simply WRONG.”
Moving forward it is also important to note that the town cannot (or more particularly should not be able to) be successfully sued for consequential damages arising from denying a permit even if a court later finds that denial to have been improper, as long as the planning and zoning commission acted in good faith. This is very important because loss of revenues and changes in market conditions could make consequential damages quite high. If there is reasonable controversy over the meaning/proper implementation of an ordinance or law then the town is protected, having acted with due process, and its conduct would not be considered arbitrary or outrageous.
For a good precedent on this see Natale_v_Town of Ridgefield.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=case&no=977323
So our P&Z commission is protected from liability for consequential damages when making reasonable mistakes in denying a permit. It is not enough for the land owners to just prove the permit was incorrectly denied, it must be denied in an arbitrary or outrageous way.
Thanks.
Why can’t the town boards/commissions make the developers pay for the expense of getting experts to provide those boards/commissions with objective disinterested advice. Why should Woodstock foot the bill for this service?
There is also an added problem in Woodstock. The most frequent visitor before boards/commissions on behalf of developers in Woodstock is CME Engineering. They have a real cozy relationship with the Town’s consulting firm, Design Professionals. DP rarely offers advice that is anything more than pro forma observations. They were silent on numerous deficiencies in the Douglas Builders proposal. One thing that became clear to anyone who attended the Pulpit Rock Road hearings was that Rapoport’s engineering consultant, Mark Goodin had it all over DP and CME. Rapoport had to pay for that consultation, and while some may believe that is was to his exclusive benefit, the result clearly benefitted the town. We should have a special assessment to repay Rapoport for the thousands of dollars he must have spent to prevail over an ill conceived, environmentally harmful development proposal.
The other issue of concern relative to engineering opinions presented before our Woodstock Planning and Zoning Commission is that a principal of CME Engineering is the son of a current member of the Commission. How objective can that commissioner be when his son and members of the son’s firm are standing before the commission presenting on behalf of the developer? Do the other members of the commission feel as free as they should to explore the validity of CME’s opinions and ensure an impartial outcome? This conflict of interest seems to be of little concern to the Commission. One would think that many of the current members of the PZC are intimately aware of ethical requirements and the need for the integrity of the Commission to be maintained in appearance as well as in operation. The Planning and Zoning Commission should take steps to ensure that their proceedings are governed by fairness and the strictest of ethical propriety, so that the interests of the town receive as much consideration as the interests of the developers.
A well written article, and I obviosuly agree with the author. The real problem in ever getting good decisions from PZC & IWWA has always been political. Elect the correct people, and conservation is a proiority, and decisions will be supported by the courts. Likewise, for years these positions have been held by developer friendly individuals…who basically sold Woodstock out. My apologies for sounding redundant…but IWWA’s appointed status separates those members from the citizens, and places the responsibility on the selectmen (now is that comforting?) for choosing the right people on IWWA…plus it should seem clear that an ethics ordinance is essential to the entire process.
It is nice the court’s decision invalidated many of the tired, over-used excuses for letting developers do whatever they wanted…but still…it remains a political problem. People must take an active interest and role. The courts are always the last option.
Safety, public health and welfare!!!!
Who in their right mind would be against any of those things! Obviously no sane individual.
The issue is; who’s defining What’s safe, what’s in the interest of public health and welfare.
I could make an extremely good case that ROADS are definitely NOT good for the public’s safety, health or welfare.
Around 40,000 people are killed in auto fatalities every year.
Over 3 miilion are injured anually on the roads.
At least 3 million squirrels are killed yearly on Woodstock roads alone!
There is possibly no greater source of fossil fuel emissions than automobile traffic on roads.
The residue created from road runoff(roads are made out of oil derivatives people) is almost uncalculable.
The wildlife(not even including squirrels) killed by roads intersecting their habitats in most certainly uncalculable.
The noise of traffic destroys the quality of life for man and beast.
The effects of the tonnage of poisonous gases spewed from roads will be felt by future generations, if it doesn’t destroy them.
Clearly, roads are an infinitismly greater threat to the public than 20 developed acres!
Why then doesn’t the WP&Z demand their deconstruction and end the terror? And why don’t the citizens of Woodstock demand they do so?
The point of this is to show that the “public” safety, welfare, or health are not the standard of the attacks on landowner’s private property rights. The development of woods is not wished by some citizens of Woodstock. Especially when it’s in their own backyards. I am someone who loves the green of Woodstock but does not pretend that the house being built down the road is a threat to public safety to try to justify my desires.
The assertion has been made that the Nelson/Douglas experts are biased and therefore not credible. If that logic holds, then are we to assume that anti-developers’ experts are NOT biased by their paymasters??????
If “public” health was the major issue against Douglas Builders, and as Quid Pro Quo states that private property rights end where public health begins, I hope he doesn’t burn fossil fuels for his home heating, I hope he doesn’t use electricity made from fossil fuels or dammed rivers or nuclear waste producing reactors and I hope that no “public” health defenders live, have lawns, driveways, access roads to their property, use pesticides or use septic systems anywhere near a brook, stream or pond, because by the expert testified danger of these things near woods and water Quid pro Quo’s house may be found a “public” health hazard and therfore his property rights would end where the saftey threats began, as stated.
Phew!..
The selective application of the “environmental and safety” card is quite obvious. How many cows are near water sources in Woodstock? One does not have to be a biologist to know what by-product of cow’s fills many Woodstock streams.
No it’s not milk Quid.
Where is the “public safety” oriented crowd on this one?
They proclaim that farms are “natural”(they are as UNNATURAL as skyscrapers) and they like to view them rather than new houses. Therfore they are safe and in the “public” interest.
And obiously, the “public” does not include landowners who develop. They are some knid of inhuman, evil, smelly, souless creature that feeds off of the destruction of communities.
They and their workers and their families are definitely not the”public”.
So “Rock ON” to the people who believe that rights are not absolute. Cross your fingers and hope that slavery is never voted back into law, but if it is, you anti-absolutists should stay away from the tanning booth.
There are lots of reasons to be nostalgic for the way things used to be, but I have to support sensible, safe, development because we can’t control larger economic forces driven by conditions far beyond Woodstock.
There are some pieces of land which should not be fully developed (although I’m not sure the determining factor should be sophisticated neighbors with lots of resources)but I’m concerned about what a mess the P&Z process will be if everyone who objects to a development now says “its about the safety of the children…” and lets that subjective statement rule.
So does this mean that the Board of Finance can come out from underneath its slimy rock and give more money to the school system…no lets phrase that correctly, stop setting stupid budgets that have no reality in reference to need? I want to go door to door in this town and tell everyone that the school system was shorted by over $400,000.00 just because the distribution of education and government funds is unfair. I want to tell everyone that the government spending is crooked and REALLY unnessesary, and thats why there is no money in this town.
Hey Hermann: Do you know that Pomfret got a $90,000 GRANT FOR THE IMPROVEMENT OF ITS RECREATION FIELD?????? And if you look on the Capital plan proposed for the Town of Woodstock (= borrow 8 million dollars and drawn up by our Selectmen- the same people who spend the money in the wasteful general government budget) our taxpayers will spend $75,000 for 4 years for a “recreation field”. Will this be the future site of the new COMMUNITY CENTER???? Is that why we need to have tax payers invest in this?
You have to love “Questioner’s” logic…which essentially takes reasonable assumptions…pushes them to the extreme boundaries to find fault…and then returns to his intial assumptions…and then claims they are now actually unreasonable.
Common sense should prevail in recognizing that obvious “conflict of interest” concerns cause citizens to lose confidence in its government. Likewise, common sense should again prevail in seeing that Design Professionals has provided Woodstock with horrible “professional” representation over the years for both IWWA & PZC. The “scales” have been biased in favor of developers for many years, and these decisions certainly do not level the playing field….but they do help bring some balance back into the game. Remember to follow the money…because those with the most to gain…typically are the most passionate. The rest of us typically don’t react until backed into a corner..or something occurs so egregious…that it moves us to action. In the case of Pulpit Rock Road…both conditions occured.
Finally, “Questioner” once again attempts to impugn the reputation of hired experts such as Dr. DeSantos and Mark Goodin, PE. These individuals’ reputations and integrity are paramount to their livelihoods…and any assumption that these individuals would practice deception, or follow “orders” of their “paymasters”…is simply ludicrous. These two individuals put in “extra” effort without compensation, and were appalled by the behavior & lack of understanding demonstrated by both Woodstock’s IWWA & PZC. Again, “follow the money” to find any unscrupulous behavior…because these “experts” are certainly not driving Porsches nor vacationing at their “second” homes in Martha’s Vineyard.
I would challenge anyone to drive west down Pulpit Rock Road …just past Woodstock’s featured wetlands/trout stream highlighted in the conservation plan…and keep a sharp eye open on the right looking for an “orange flag”. This marks the proposed 50 foot wide paved entry of the proposed Douglas Development into the existing ten foot wide dirt road. Now look forward at the crest of the hill…and even without being a professional engineer…this is so obviously dangerous…that no one would believe any engineer or developer, with a straight face, could suggest this is safe! The former PZC group failed to pass the Douglas proposal- the final vote was tied 4 against- 4 in support. Three(3) out of the four(4) members voting in favor of this proposal LOST in the subsequent election. If we had elected IWWA members…the same result would have followed. But no…Woodstock citizens are too stupid to understand ecological/environmental/wetland issues…we need our brilliant selectmen to help us…so instead they choose their spouses. No conflicts there…ooops….i got off track…and continued to beat the dead horse!
Now utilizing Questioner’s logic…if everyone owned a tank, no one went over 3 miles per hour, and people only used this road for emergencies…well then obviously…nothing is really wrong with this development. I rest my case.
I have noticed in the past that Scott Young, a principal of CME, has presented applications to the Planning Commission, of which his father, Dexter Young, is a member. Is this legal and/or ethical? Also, Questioner, I think the legal standards of what constitutes public health and safety are established through evolving case law - its not as if we have to start from scratch to define all of this.
Scott Young is an intelligent PROFFESSIONAL, PERIOD.
OMT - I don’t understand - are you saying that intelligent professionals should be exempted from legal and ethical standards?
Is the scuttlebut about town that our Democratic First Selectwoman participated in Mike Alberts’ fundraiser at Camp Nahaco held in late August one of the facts that Jim Kaeding says should be checked?
The 10/19 Planning and Zoning public hearing on the Scott & McWilliam Application for “Activity On A Scenic Road” was continued to 10/26 because of an advertising snafu, the Legal Notice for the 10/19 hearing was not published in the Pillager. Wonder whether that was an honest mistake or was it intentional to minimize participation at the rescheduled hearing? Anyway, there was good attendance at the 10/26 hearing which addressed the activity that occurred without the approval of the PZC at the site, specifically, the straightening and removal of native stone walls, and the clearing of mature trees.
Planning and Zoning has continued the hearing to retain an expert on stone walls from U Conn who can provide information presumbably for the correct resolution of this problem.
Here will be a good test to see if PZC is willing to stand up for the integrity of our Scenic Road Ordinance. Stay tuned.
OMT - I’m still looking for an answer to above question. Do you believe intelligent professionals should be exempt from legal/ethical standards? If not, what is your point?
Believe the issue between the Realist and OMT are somewhat off the mark. Scott Young is both a professional & following legal/ethical standards. It is the responsibility of THE Board Members to remove themselves where potential conflict arises. Nonetheless, legally, it is unclear that Dexter Young must remove himself- but clearly - it doesn’t demonstrate to the public a real effort to adhere to the “highest levels� of public trust. 100 years ago-nearly everyone was related in some manner in Woodstock- but today- these conflicts could & should be eliminated.
Seadog - The fundraiser at camp Nahaco was not a Mike Alberts fundraiser, but a Republican committee fundraiser. She was not there supporting Mike Alberts, simply there showing her face on the political scene. In Woodstock it is routine and common to see dems and republicans at each others’ fundraisers. I always go to my own party’s and the other party’s fundraisers and see quite a mix of parties at both. It’s a decent meal for a reasonable price and a way to socialize with people in town. Contrary to what one might infer from this list, we don’t all hate each other.
Today’s Norwich Bulletin has an article on the Pulpit Rock Road subdivision lawsuits, “Lack of expert keeps Woodstock plan alive.� It is a very good description of one part of one of the two decisions handed down by the court. Unfortunately, however, the article omits the more important aspects of the rulings and(especially in its headline) leaves a mistaken impression of the current status of the subdivision proposal. Following are several excerpts from a letter to the Bulletin which I hope will clarify several key points and reduce any confusion:
There were in fact two parallel lawsuits against the IWWA and the Planning & Zoning Commission challenging the denial of a proposed 8-lot subdivision on Pulpit Rock Road. Each suit alleged a number of substantive and procedural errors by each commission, and the court issued a separate decision on each lawsuit. Taken together, the key points of these two decisions are:
1. The court upheld both commissions on every substantive issue. By far the most important aspect of these decisions is that the court affirmed two long-standing principles of Connecticut land use law. First, a commission (alone) makes the ultimate decision whether or not an application meets the requirements of its regulations. Second, in making that decision a commission has broad discretion in how to interpret its regulations. The court ruled on every issue that there was substantial evidence in the public record to justify each commission’s decision that the application did not meet the requirements of its regulations. This point cannot be overemphasized. Local commissions are often told by applicants that “this plan meets your regulations so you must approve it.� The court reminded us that only the commission can make that determination. The commission decides what its rules mean (within reason), and whether a plan has met the necessary standards and requirements.
2. Strict adherence to proper procedure is important. Each lawsuit alleged several procedural errors. Traditionally, the courts in Connecticut have taken a very strict view of procedural requirements and have held municipal commissions to a very high standard. Even so, all of the alleged procedural errors were dismissed by the court except for the one by the IWWA that was covered very well in the article. If a commission plays by the rules and treats everyone fairly, the courts give them a great deal of discretion and authority over substantive matters.
3. The (old) plan is dead. The denial of the application by the PZC is final (unless the case is appealed to a higher court in the next few days, as I understand it). Any future proposal for subdivision of the property will require an entirely new application made under our current subdivision regulations. As the article said, the IWWA approved a subsequent wetlands permit, so it is unclear whether the court’s remand of the first denial will have any practical effect at IWWA. Irregardless, the developer will have to submit a plan to the PZC which complies with our current subdivision regulations, which are substantially different from those in effect when this controversy began.
Ken Goldsmith, Chairman
Woodstock Planning & Zoning Commission
‘Numbers’ You’ve got to be kidding. Who was the biggest contributor to Mike’s campaign in 2004. 14% of his campaign funds came from the RTC and about 40% came from the Republican Party. This year he’s the only local Republican candidate running. I have seen an email about the Republican fundraiser at Camp Nahaco telling people how to get tickets. The interesting part of this email was where one should call to get tickets.
OMT - So I ask again, if Scott Young is an intelligent professional, should he ask his father, a PZC commissioner, to recuse himself when his son is presenting applications? Or do you believe Scott Young is exempt because he is an intelligent professional?
Ken Goldsmith,
I know this is a little pedantic but I wouldn’t use the word “Irregardless” in your editorial to the Bulletin (use irrespective or regardless instead). But otherwise very good clarification and explains the issues well.
Thanks.
It’s pedantic!
I know, normally I would have kept my mouth shut but he is going to publish it. I’d rather someone tell me my fly is down than let me walk around all day like that!
(Umm, not that I do that all that often…)
Thanks.
Bowman, If you had added the smiley face, I wouldn’t have brought it up.
Ken Rapaport,
I am having a hard time responding to your critique of mine as I fail to fully understand it.
I do understand your allegations I impugned two individuals’ reputations.
What I impugned was the logic that the developer’s engineers are biased due to the side they are working for, and the fact that doesn’t seem to apply for experts testifying on the anti-development side.
If they are working for free as you state, I guess they do not have a paymaster.(But I am curious how they make a living working for no compensation?) I could still use the same style of bias you show towards Douglas experts and say that because they were asked in by a certain side, they are predisposed towards that side.
I never impugned individuals, just the argument that the ‘other’ side’s experts are biased and to be discounted, but your side is gospel.
I fail to understand the tank reference in response to me and the opening paragraph.
Thanks
Quid,
Curious, how many years of schooling at Uconn is required to be an “expert” on stone walls?
And Quid, if “lawn managment” and “groundwater would be polluted by septige” and “canopy removal” are threats to public safety, where are these experts and the immensly larger and hence extremely hazardous things called FARMS?
And any house with a septic system and lawn for that matter.
This vague decision you quote could be used to stop or restrict anyone’s property rights at any time. Read it and think Cafe posters.
“The Superior Court judge referred to the Connecticut case of Chevron Oil Co. v. Zoning Board of Appeals [170 Conn. 146,365 A.2d 387 (1976)], where the Connecticut Supreme Court stated, “zoning regulations, so far as they reasonably promote the public health, safety and welfare, are constitutional even though their effect may be to limit the exercise of private property rights.â€?
The color of my house may be found detrimental to the public welfare. My driveway, and lawn could be found a hazard to the public safety. The smoke from my chimney may endager the public health.
Wake up people and see what’s coming.
Questioner,
I’m going to tackle some of your questions because I’ve been a consistent reader of this blog and I’ve read with interest the issues around the Pulpit Rock Road development and it’s scenic road status. When Ken Rappoport suggests bias on the part of the developers engineers, he is saying that the firm hired by said developer is local, and that firms success and growth is directly tied to our towns’ development. That is why there is a bias. In the case of Mr. Rappoport, he hired experts outside of Woodstock- they had no bias against anyone- they were hired to examine the development plans and comment on them and how well they met the P+Z regulations. I’m sure if they felt there was nothing substantive to testify about, they would have declined Mr. Rapoports request to to testify. From reading the findings of the Court, they most certainly found many inconsistencies.
Regarding the stone wall expert: from what I understand, the expert has a PhD in geology and his specific expertise happens to be New England stone walls. Although I’m not sure Robert Thorson is the expert P+Z will get an opinion from, you might want to check out: http://www.stonewall.uconn.edu/StoneByStone.htm. Its funny how you mock this!
Quid’s interpretation of the court’s statements in the decision against Douglas builders brief about canopy removal, septage seeping into ground water, etc directly relates to environmental hazzards that have, without a doubt, impacted the the environment and in turn, negatively impacts our communities and the people who live within them. I don’t think the decision is vague at all….you typed it and it clearly states that ‘zoning regulations so far as they REASONABLY promote public health, etc…..are constitutional EVEN THOUGH THEIR EFFECT MAY LIMIT THE EXERCISE OF PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS. What this means is that the color of your house would not reasonably affect public health, or your lawn or driveway. However, if you choose to pollute the air by burning a volatile, controlled substance in your fireplace, or choose to spread napalm or other banned defoliants on your trees, I bet you will hear from the authroities! Although not controlled by zoning, these activites, to the best of my knowledge, are illegal and detrimental to the public health. I’m not sure the folks reading this blog need to wake up; I think you need to wake up!
Questioner,
I cannot help you in your intellectual pursuits to better understand what has been communicated previously. I do believe that you consistently move arguments to the extreme boundaries of interpretation….suggesting that my experts work for free or that what they say is gospel.
FYI- the cumulative negative effects of septic systems are the reasoning behind centralized sewage processing in urban areas, and many progressive communities are considering the banning of excessive fertilizer treatments for lawns. A few more dandelions are a reasonable trade-off for less chemicals in our ground water.
Farms pose a more significant dilemma between the need for organized, efficient systems to feed people, versus the pollution generated to the land/water. No easy answer here…where as the lawn care vs. dandelion equation is easier to solve. Significant wood-burning heating systems are already under scrutiny because of environmental issues…are you suggesting that if everyone owned one of these- the environment wouldn’t be harmed? You might want to consider the dire warnings issued by one of our few international friends- Britain- concerning global warming.
Not sure your final warning to people to “wake up� resonates much…except possibly under the heading of education…where our long term ignorance towards education is manifesting itself in our slow economic decline- or at least the segmentation between have(educated) & have-nots(uneducated).
I do believe that you consistently move arguments to the extreme boundaries of interpretation….suggesting that my experts work for free or that what they say is gospel.
Ken,
Questioner has been using a combination of slippery slope and straw man logical fallacies in these arguments. The board I usually frequent is very critical of improper logic and standard fallacies are pointed out when they occur. I’ve been staying away from pointing them out I don’t know how useful that would be on this board (and I don’t want to look like a condescending cad) but I think that it could help counter and point out problems with some of the more over the top claims by specific members.
There are a ton of sites that have popped up over the past five years on logical fallacies. This one is pretty good:
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/index.html
Thanks,
Kevin
I for one am thrilled with this decision. I believe that some developers have had an easy ride in town to date, and have used the “fear of lawsuit card” to get their way too often. They are a business, and their primary interest, naturally, is the success of their business. That is not necessarily compatible with the best interests of the town and its residents (human and natural). It is the job of the Boards and Commissions to protect the interests of the town and enforce our regulations.
The easier it is to build in Woodstock, the more subdivisions we will get. With the housing market softening, we will end up with a glut of new housing that will lower the value of existing properties. If subdivision designs are well thought out, are responsive to the concerns of the community, and follow Randall Arendt’s principles, the builders will make more money on them AND the development will be more compatible with the character of the town and protective of the environment.
I respect and congratulate those members of the Boards and Commissions who had the courage to uphold the regulations. Last but NOT least, I also respect and congratulate the citizens of the town who did their homework and put so much time and effort into this battle that was worth fighting. May others will benefit from your commitment and integrity.
The fundamental issue here is simple and clear to me, though obviously not so to many.
Does an individual “own” (have full right to his property, be it money, land or ideas,) or does he merely “lease” his property at the whim of the majority?
It is an either/or question.
Either an individual or a community owns his property.
The issue is not about “public safety” or the common good, for those terms are so vague and can be used to discredit anything a hostile group wishes.
It’s hard to believe that people in CT, aren’t nervous about the new wave of reinterpretation of eminent domain laws.
I am being accused of going to extremes and logical fallacies such as the straw man.
A few miles from us, in New London, a city Govt. has siezed the property of individuals to be turned over to other individuals and into a business center that will enhance the “public good” by creating more tax revenue!
And I!! am taking things to extremes??
And in Lake Tahoe the exact thing is happening that is called “far fetched� by my opposition. Here’s a clip:
The Erosion of Property Rights When Your Home Is Not Your Castle
By: Yaron Brook
Should random passersby be able to dictate the color of your house?
The Lake Tahoe Regional Planning agency is advancing this and other assaults on property owners living around Lake Tahoe. A recent 12-to-1 vote by the agency recommends a swarm of new regulations mandating that homes near the lake be smaller and less visible.
“Think of the millions of people who come here to see the clear water, trees, [and] natural landscape,” explains agency spokeswoman Jill Keller. “In all the surveys, people say they prefer the natural beauty of Tahoe,” allegedly being sullied by the sight of lakefront homes.
For the full article and many others see the Ayn Rand Institute and search property rights.
How much of an imagination does it take to see a “scenic house ordinance� passed by the Town of Woodstock?
“Ridiculous!� You say??
Is there something rational about a scenic road ordinance and silly about a scenic house law??? You people who think it’s ridiculous should go tell the Lake Tahoe people they are “far fetched�.
The public good and public safety are cool sounding terms that denote a moral crusade when in essence they can, by the simple standards of Ken Rapaport’s experts’ definitions such as Canopy Removal, septage, lawn chemical runoff, roads, etc. be applied anywhere-anytime.
Unless one lives in a tree house, doesn’t urinate, doesn’t have a driveway or lawn, these standards can be used to show ANY property in Woodstock as a public health/environmental hazard.
The floodgates of majority pleasure are being opened wider and at the local level by the infringement of the Pulpit Rock property owner’s rights.
I have yet to hear why we should allow the continued existence of roads which kill 40,000 persons ANUALLY! We hear daily about the three thousand soldiers who have given their lives for their country. We are assailed by the allegations that this makes it a disater. The people who are decrying the deaths should turn their attention to a more serious killer:ROADS.
THIRTEEN times the number of killed soldiers in Iraq die ANNUALLY on US roads!!!
CLEARLY, this is a public safety issue of gigantic proportions.
The point is, WHO determines what constitutes a “public safety” threat??? The Sierra Club? The CDC? The FDA? Kim Jong Il? A group of neighbors with lawyers? Starlight?
I very recently took a long hike into some nearby woods(not owned by myself), and was saddened by the previously near pristine conditions now dotted with a long dirt road with some sites marked out and some already being developed.
My desire to walk through an unbroken wilderness however, do not give me a moral or legal right to stop the development.
I know this post is getting long so I will continue later.
Bowman I have yet to respond to your Blackstone rebuttal upon which you made some excellent points- you deserve a response so it’s coming.
One last blip, the logic of a paid outsider being purely objective and a paid resident being subjective escapes me, especially when the outsider, now admittedly was paid for by a resident seeking certain results.
Again, I am not impugning any individual, just the argument that one side’s experts are biased and therefore not to be taken seriously.
Thanks
Questioner,
My main problem with some of your posts have been a tendency to pull things to outer extremes; argue that those extremes are bad and then imply that you have thus invalidated more moderate positions. There is no reason not to suppose that we also feel those extreme positions are bad and will fight just as hard to stop them from happening (strawman of our position). Claiming those extremes are coming unless we stop/fight against what is going on now is a slippery slope argument.
Another example is arguing that opposition to the Iraq war is based on solely on the number of fatalities, we have more fatalities on our highways therefor to be consistent people against the war should be against the implementation of highways. This is also a strawman as all of the people I’ve talked to who are against the war are not against it solely due to body count, they fell there are several other factors at play that combined make it a “disaster”. You are arguing against a much easier to attack position that does not actually exist (OK, maybe someone somewhere holds it but to claim that therefor it applies to the whole group of people against the Iraq war would lead to a fallacy of composition). I’m sorry for dinging you on that but that type of thing drives me crazy.
I think from previous discussions we have both agreed that some level of control over property can be exercised by the state (for example I can’t just start a toxic waste dump on my property). So neither one of us are strict property rights libertarians. Now we are just discussing what the exact limits of the state’s ability to control should be. A strict property rights libertarian could try and use similar slippery slope arguments on either one of us based on that and it would be just as fallacious for him to do it to you as it would be for him to do it to me or Ken or anyone else.
Thanks.
Curses,
I said fallacy of composition when I should have stated hasty generalization. I blame a lack of morning coffee.
Thanks.
Bowman,
I understand the straw man falicy but as I understand it, I have not committed it.
What I have done is to take an example, extreme sometimes-sometimes not, and tried to show yourself and the cafe public that oncea principle has been destroyed the consequences will necessarily be “extreme”.
For example, I would have been accused of faulty logic ten years ago if I said that the age of blame and frivolous lawsuits will culminate in a woman suing Mcdonalds over a spilled hot coffee.
It would have been called far fetched and extreme if a decade ago I theorized that in the future the “public safety” would prompt state governments to ban smoking in PRIVATE establishments.
Twenty years ago I would have been laughed at if I said some slick, unprincipled, greedy lawyers will get away with billions of alleged damages from the Tobacco industry.
If I said next year another few billion will be pilfered from the manufacturer of fatty foods, I still today would probably be ignored at least. (I’ll call you next year with your response)
The point is, and the wake up call I am desperately trying to make is that once a principle has been either deconstructed or created, depending on the case, a far-fetched imagination can hardly keep pace with societal reality.
To project “house color ordinances” not only is not far- fetched, it has already happened in the states.
In the case of private property, the only control I will ever agree upon is the check of a NEGATIVE upopn another’s property rights. Again, something must cross a property line before a proper code of laws may institute corrections or damges. Hence we might agree upon the prohibition against you building a toxic waste dump immediately next to a residence I have already established, or say a resevoir.
Now, the mere sight of something on a man’s property,(such as a stone wall!) cannot be deemed a remotely reasonable or rational infringement of a neighbors rights. Therefore there exists no right to interfere.(laws or codes to the contrary)
I believe you are sincere and would fight some “extreme” abuses of property rights. But Mr. Bowman, as you seem quite acqainted with the law, I’m sure you’ll understand the implications and power behind precedents. In the current “green” mindset our country is in, one day it may be brook trout, the next day crickets and worms.
I do not believe it imaginative in the least, to envision a landowner opposed to nearby development to “find’ an expert who may testify that the ecological value of a mosquito puddle outweighs the property rights of a landowner, and because a majority of neighbors may also be opposed to said development, a democratic vote may strip an american of his constitutional rights.
I am not a libertarian, but for all intents and purposes I probably would be categorized in the libertarian camp. As screwed up as some of their ideas are, they are sometimes philosophically correct.
Merci and Adiuex
Sorry I didn’t see this sooner.
I think you are confusing the straw man fallacy (arguing against a characterization of a person’s position and when you destroyed that claiming you destroyed that person’s actual position) and slippery slope fallacy (saying that by allowing one thing, other bad things must necessarily follow).
I’ll deal with Slippery Slope as it appears that it is what much or your post is about.
You started by stating: “What I have done is to take an example, extreme sometimes-sometimes not, and tried to show yourself and the cafe public that once a principle has been destroyed the consequences will necessarily be “extremeâ€?.”
This is almost a textbook example of the slippery slope fallacy. You have stated that once a principle has been destroyed, extreme consequences will *necessarily* follow and used it as a premise in your argument. All I need to destroy this is one example where “extreme” consequences did not follow. For example what extreme consequences followed from removing the long held principle that left handedness was incorrect? It could have led to everyone being forced to be left handed in school (much as left handed people had been forced to write with their right hand in the past) yet inexplicably it did not happen. So with one exception your argument has been shown not to hold up. This is of no surprise to me as the slippery slope argument has long been shown to be fallacious.
Slippery Slope is a form of Non-Sequitur. A Non-Sequitur is where a the conclusion to your argument does not necessarily follow from your premise. For example
All people from London have big feet
Joe is from England
Therefore Joe has big feet.
Joe might or might not have big feet from our premises. We shouldn’t have come to that conclusion based on the lines before it though. In order to avoid this we would have to add another premise such as Joe is from London. In order for your property rights argument to hold up you need to show where it nessesarily follows that we will have house color laws in Woodstock. By giving examples of it happening somewhere else you warn people to be careful because it could happen. But to claim that it will nessesarily happen is when you fall into the trap of the slippery slope fallacy.
The slippery slope is stating that if one thing happens then other bad things will necessarily follow without showing that they must necessarily follow. Since bad things don’t follow in all cases you can’t conclude that bad things will necessarily follow in a particular case because they follow some of the time in other cases.
You delve into some anecdotal evidence around public safety, lawsuits etc. I’m not exactly sure how these prove your point. The only way to avoid the slippery slope fallacy is to show for a particular example why if you allow one thing others *must* necessarily follow.
As I stated showing some examples where things did happen to follow doesn’t answer the mail. I can show examples where the slippery slope didn’t occur. For example we allow smoking of cigarettes and consumption of alcohol but strangely we still outlaw other forms of drugs. Massachusetts now allows gay couples to marry but inexplicably they have no plans in progress allow people to marry goats. For every example where the slippery slope did occur I can give you one where it didn’t.
As for precedent and the law. Sure it CAN happen but saying it necessarily will happen is once again falling into the fallacy of slippery slope.
Finally, I’m not sure what principle you feel is being destroyed here. It certainly isn’t the principle that the government can’t tell you what do do with your land. You acknowledged the destruction of that principle the second you agreed that I should be disallowed by force of law from building a toxic waste dump on my property.
Thanks.
Bowman,
First please pardon my long absence from this forum. The Christmas season was especially busy for the business I am in. Please do not take my silence as acquiessence to your last post in any way.
The slippery slope fallacy that you claim to derail my arguments is quite simply incorrect in this case.
There is a rational, logical progression of events that can be shown to follow certain precedents.
Even if the whole of human history were not on my side in the area of power, be it tribal, mafia, monarchial, or a democratic regime, power like gravity inevitably feeds itself and grows if unchecked.
The founding fathers, most of them at the very least amatuer if not professional historians( evidenced acutely by Madison in the Federalist) were aware of the natural tendency of political power to ever grow. Wether by a monarch or a mob(democracy), they concluded that the only long term stable form of government was a constitutional republic. A government whose powers and non-powers were clearly and intracately spelled out.
The “slippery slope” you accuse me of comitting, is the same thinking that was prevalent among the founders. The belief that governments would always seek to concentrate and grow their powers was not only historically evident, it was also logical if one has any familiarity with human nature.
Therefore I reject totally the argument that I have comitted a slippery slope.
Back to property rights which I take to be the fundamental issue in the Pulpit Rock case, (I do not see how anyone could see it as anything else!) I emphatically disagree with your categorizing myself as agreeing that government can use force in telling a landowner what he can do on his property.
I will state my position once again.
Government may only check a negative, that is, one property owner’s violation of another’s rights. A governement, cannot help one property owner to violate another property owner’s rights!
You seem to confuse my statement about the toxic waste dump in the immediate vicinity of a residence or resevoir. In this case, a clear contamination would occur on anothers established residence were the toxins present. The minute toxins contaminated well water, soil, or air around a residence, a government would be morally justified to step in to PROTECT property rights, in this case of the property owner’s property being contaminated. You seem to have a hard time understanding my position clearly.
There is a vast canyon of difference of actual property crossing physical damage, than the sight of a stone wall, or the sound of children playing, or the smoke from my chimney, where there previously wasn’t any.
In other words for a property right to be violated, SOMETHING must physically cross a property line. Chemicals, Fire, Waste, Noise, are things that can cross a property line and be violations of another’s rights. A sight cannot be. The sight of my fence or wall or rotund stomach sunbathing cannot be in any way a violation of another’s rights. Therefore a government has no moral and hence LEGAL auhtority to change any of these things, codes and laws notwithstanding!
As far a the progression of property rights violations goes, they are in the same escalation, in fact are a corallary of, the violations of individual rights that have been increasing for over a hundred years in the USA.
Again, even if it were not happening all around us, the latest being the bans on fatty foods in NY. and coming soon to MA., it would still certainly not be a slippery slope to project house color ordinances. It is a logical progression of the ever upheld “rights” of a majority. If there can exist such an moral obscenity called a scenic road ordinance, it takes little imagination to see a scenic house ordinance, scenic lawn ordinance, scenic garden ordinance, scenic compost pile ordinance, etc. . The only question is when. It may be a year or a century, but if majority votes are the determiner of rights, ie. THE PRECEDENT, anything goes.
Wether the issue is cigaratte smoke, fatty foods, “hate” speech, employer/employee relations, health care, education, and soon military consription, all these issues are in a state of increased governmental encroachment, at the expense of American, Constitutional, individual rights.
The only question of further power lusting by government is not if, but how much how soon.
A couple of months ago, I joked in a previous post about government regulating the diets of individuals. Here even I didn’t imagine the pace at which power abuses could occur. They have happened in NY and are on the agenda for Beacon Hill.
The reason these infringements are occuring and will continue to occur Bowman, is that the precedent has been set. Further infringements will logically, sooner or later, follow.
That it most certainly not a slippery slope, but reality.
Again even if history did not show democracy, monarchy, oligarchy, or anarchy(all sytems of men) to concentrate power away from individual rights,(a system of laws), human nature and current events would prove my point. Only a head in the sand or a willful disregard of historical facts, current events and human nature could not see this happening.
Thanks and sorry for the delayed response,
Questioner
[…] Bowman Talks About the Importance of the Internet in Our Woodstock Lives ‘Questioner’ came back to continue his debate with Bowman about rights of individuals. See today’s comment under “Kudo’s to the Court…” […]
Questioner. Initially I was repelled by the ban on trans fats for the same reasons you are. However, I have come to a couple of conclusions. One, I can enjoy food without trans fat with the same gusto as food with trans fat. Two, the cost savings to healthcare warrant this change. The leading cause of death in this country is due to cardiovascular insults. The amount of money spent on cardiovascular disease by the government in the form of medicare, medicaid is a tremendous burden to society which is paid for by taxation and steadily rising healthcare insurance. So I am willing to give up a little freedom (which really isn’t much of a sacrifice and actually a good choice) if it means that I can enjoy more freedom by living longer and paying less toward healthcare. This logic can be applied to other areas that you speak of as well. Property rights for instance. I am willing to forgo some property rights if it means that it is for the greater good. If everyone was allowed to do as they wished, the outcome would be disasterous (”if you have any familiarity with human nature”). I think that you are valid in questioning government and to be wary of socialism. However, I think your views of government as being conspiratorial are a bit extreme and paranoid. Government and laws serve a purpose and although they may appear at times to infringe on the individual it is often in the best interest of the greater good. How else could government function? And like it or not, someday, the greater good may include you.
Questioner,
I’ll see if I can’t take another run at explaining the implications of the slippery slope fallacy to you.
You have moved on and talked about a “natural tendency of political power to ever grow�. For the sake of argument let’s just take that principle at face value, fair enough. Where you get yourself into trouble is when you try and apply it to a specific situation and state because of the principle if you allow this small thing it will necessarily lead to other even worse things.
Let’s play a little game with the above principle. I have noticed lately that the POTUS has been consolidating power to the executive (a game of tug of war that has gone on since the nation’s founding). Based on the idea that there is a “natural tendency of political power to ever grow� I have come to the conclusion that by allowing him to do this it will probably lead to a dictatorship and that people should wake up and see what is coming.
Is my above conclusion correct or have I just violated the fallacy of slippery slope? If you don’t feel my conclusion was correct what mitigating factors are stopping it from happening? If you understand that, you should be able to extrapolate to see why it may not follow that the colors of our homes will be controlled if we allow the present zoning regulations to stand. I’m not sure how I can make it much clearer than this and if you still don’t see my point I think we will have to agree to disagree and let the readers decide.
You have gone on to propose an interesting way to evaluate property rights and what limits the government should have. You have put forth:
“In other words for a property right to be violated, SOMETHING must physically cross a property line. Chemicals, Fire, Waste, Noise, are things that can cross a property line and be violations of another’s rights. A sight cannot be. The sight of my fence or wall or rotund stomach sunbathing cannot be in any way a violation of another’s rights. Therefore a government has no moral and hence LEGAL auhtority to change any of these things, codes and laws notwithstanding!�
It seems a little arbitrary to me that the sound waves physically crossing your property line can be regulated but the particle/waves of reflected light crossing your property line cannot. But OK, I’ll run with it. So is it alright for me to focus a mirror into your bedroom window so there is a blinding light in that room? How about just setting up a view beside the street in front of my house that distracts drivers and causes accidents? What about obstructing a dangerous curb in the road if the obstruction is on your property? These all are just “sights�.
Is there some level of “sight� where suddenly it becomes a problem for the neighbors and can be regulated? If so who decides what that is? How about the government’s ability to regulate sound? Should there be limits? Who decides them? Could any ordinance on sound similarly lead to a total ban sound leaving your property if we are to believe your “control the color of your house� argument? Aren’t you kind of positioning the bar so only what you care about can fly over despite noise and reflected light pretty much being the same type of thing?
As for your progression “it takes little imagination to see a scenic house ordinance, scenic lawn ordinance, scenic garden ordinance, scenic compost pile ordinance, etc. The only question is when.� I’d have to ask you to prove your conclusion. We have plenty of examples of towns that have not gone through that sequence yet have scenic road ordinances. Providing some ancidotal evidence and a general tendancy does not a firm rule of progression make. You are now in the realm of conspiracy theororists. You can’t prove that it will happen to those town’s sometime in the conveniently unspecified future and I can’t prove that it won’t. Coming to the conclusion that “The only question is when� is just sloppy logic. Being internally sure that it will happen does not in any way alter the rules of logic to make it a sound conclusion.
If are you suggest we are in a state of increased governmental encroachment, at the expense of American, Constitutional, individual rights.� then all I would have to do is provide one example of lowered government enfocement to show your “nessesarily follows� idea as false. If you like I can come up with a few.
What you are complaining about is nothing new. The balance of individual rights vs. government enchroachment has been shifting back and forth for some 200 years. There has not been a systematic progressoin in one direction outside the immaginations of people who long for a past that never existed.
Thanks.
Bowman,
First back to a definition of property right violations.
Since most of the principles of the Constitution have been denegrated, and we are continually living in a society of men, not laws, ie. a pure democracy, we can now choose to live a society where the are property rights or they do not exist.
If we choose to live in a society where property rights are an absolute, our neighbors may do things on there property which you may not desire or appreciate. Yes, there is certainly the potential for subjectively negative sights, sounds, uses of private property an individual may experience. To try to escape this fact, we may choose to live in a society where the majority can determine “the proper uses of private property” and at least limit the undesireable effects of absolute property rights.
If we choose the latter, the fact that the majority may decide what’s in the “greater good” or “public interest’, we must understand that without principles to guide laws, ANYTHING GOES!
If the logical projection, that I continue to firmly stand by,
that once a principle has been breached, future consequences can be rationally predicted with generality, if that conclusion is a slippery slope as you state, then virtually any future predictions across the board are inherently also false.
For example, to conclude that the choas in Iraq would increase where the US to immediately withdraw troops would be a slippery slope by your definitions since it could not be “proven”.
The belief that an asteroid will someday again hit the Earth based on the fact that is has happened countless times before and is currently happening all over the solar system must also be a slippery slope according to your definition because it also cannot be proven.
Quite obviously there is something wrong in your broad label of slippery slope. Unfortunately I have come to believe that you are hiding your bias to the issue of individual and hence property rights under the guise of a slippery slope argument.
The examples you use to make your case against “light particles” being infringements of anothers rights shows this.
You say “How about just setting up a view beside the street in front of my house that distracts drivers and causes accidents? What about obstructing a dangerous curb in the road if the obstruction is on your property? These all are just “sightsâ€?.
All right, I’ll run with the assumption that views from the
road should be regulated so as to not cause accidents. My wife is sunbathing out by the pool and visible to a passing motorist who by taking in her view crashes his car. The town now makes road visible pools illegal in Woodstock.
I am cutting my grass on a curb of the road and there is a complaint of “obstruction”. A town ordinance is passed that “dangerous curbs may only be mowed after midnight and before four am.
Am I being silly or ludicrous?
Not if property rights are subjective, as they already substantially are, rather than objective.
If you are right and these things constitute a threat, a town would have no choice or quite concievably face litigation itself for not doing these very things.
Back to your assertion that POTUS is acquiring more power and will this lead to a dictatorship, I’ll run with that for the sake of the argument.
If you are correct, and POTUS is acquiring vast new powers, I would say yes, it will lead to a dictatorship. If one studies the science of human history, the statement that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely certainly comes to mind. From the inception of written history has come the plethera of rulers and/or their descendants who have, once in power have assumed and ursurped their way to more power. The tribes, city/states, regions and countries where this has not happened are in the minority of the statistics.
It may not occur with the sitting president, or his immediate succesor, but if the trend of power aggregation continued, sooner or later, understanding human nature, a dictatorship would occur.
The ad hominem accusation and labeling of me as a ‘consipracy theorist’ holds no sway with me and rather shows I was misunderstood in my estimation of your knowledge of history.
The further, distressing proof of this lacking is in your paragraph-
“What you are complaining about is nothing new. The balance of individual rights vs. government enchroachment has been shifting back and forth for some 200 years. There has not been a systematic progressoin in one direction outside the immaginations of people who long for a past that never existed.”
From this paragraph alone I must presume you have nothing other than an average public high school brushing of American history, that the founders, their aspirations, knowledge, ideals and fears were only “in the immaginations of people who long for a past that never existed.”
That the freest and most historically productive century, the nineteenth, was coincendentally the century before government began a systematic encroachment of individual rights does not fit in with your assertion that there has been “individual rights vs. government encroachment has been shifting back and forth for two hundred years.” . I must assume that you’ve never heard of the Sherman Act, sixteenth ammendment, any of the New deal legislation, the creation of the federal reserve, racial quotas on private businesses, “hate” speech laws, the FDA, the FAA, the FCC, the IRS, ..I could go on for two pages here.
Were these government policies and agencies created by the founders or created in the nineteeenth century? Check you history they and the governmental gowth since them have occured in the last hundred years(except the Sherman Act).
This is clearly not a see-saw of governmental controls vs. individual rights. That the US government on average owns about a third to half of all working hours for the average citizen is unparalelled in US history compared to one to five percent at the turn of the twentieth century, from owning zero percent the first century of the United States does not factually coincide with the bland assertion that ” There has not been a systematic progressoin in one direction”.
I am sorry to say, if you went to a public school and this is your gleaming of US history, the worst things Ernie Wetzel could say about public schools would be a vast understatement.
The logic of this next paragraph is non-existent.
“If are you suggest we are in a state of increased governmental encroachment, at the expense of American, Constitutional, individual rights.â€? then all I would have to do is provide one example of lowered government enfocement to show your “nessesarily followsâ€? idea as false. If you like I can come up with a few. ”
This is as illogical as my assertion that smoking is healthy, by the fact that I can give you a ninety two year old smoker in great health, therefore the smokers who have contracted lung cancer are abberations.
You pose as a logistician, but it does not seem to me you are realizing how illogical are the statements you are making.
Once again, simply put, once some other value, public safety, public welfare, public good, has replaced the uniquely American concept of individual rights, there will be no end to the downward spiral and disintegration of increased governmental controls and decreased individual freedoms.
To close from an immagination for a past that never existed from a person who never existed except in an imagination-
“If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress…. Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.”
— James Madison
ps. several imaginations have called this man the father of the Constitution.
Thanks.