from Taxpayer
Certainly I don’t support radical, ideologically-based, sweeping change to any social system (like the Democrats do), but I think we can and should begin to incrementally make changes that address the failures of our school systems. We can’t afford not to.
These incremental reforms may include many of the things that conservatives have advocated for years: School choice, charter schools, merit pay for teachers, expansion of technical/trade school systems, transformative changes to curriculum, financial rewarding of successful schools, fairer school funding practices, ect.
But let’s not ignore the elephant in the kitchen. While I am a supporter for reform efforts simply because the expensive status quo isn’t working, the reality is that student success is more dependent on personal motivation and student accountability (values that liberals like to ignore) than it is on teacher accountability and financial motivation.
Robert Samuelson noted in a recent editorial that “against these realities, school reform rhetoric is blissfully evasive. It is often an exercise in extravagant expectations. Even if George W. Bush’s “No Child Left Behind” program had been phenomenally successful (it wasn’t), many thousands of children would have been left behind. Now Duncan Arndt routinely urges “a great teacher” in every classroom. That would be about 3.7 million “great” teachers — a feat akin to having every college football team composed of all-Americans. With this sort of intellectual rigor, what school “reform” promises is more disillusion.”
Also, George Will noted recently in a fabulous editorial (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/27/AR2010082703805.html)that in “America’s Smallest School: The Family” author Paul E.Barton estimated that about 90 percent of the difference in schools’ proficiencies can be explained by five factors: the number of days students are absent from school, the number of hours students spend watching television, the number of pages read for homework, the quantity and quality of reading material in the students’ homes — and, much the most important, the presence of two parents in the home.
Will rightly added that “public policies can have little purchase on these five, and least of all on the fifth.”
So while I advocate for reform, I am also a realist and very much understand your side of the argument, however, we can’t just sit back and do nothing.
Duncan Arndt is quoted as saying that poverty isn’t destiny and somehow, deep down, I really do believe this is true, at least for some. So isn’t it worth the effort to create reform that gives opportunity to those who silently suffer in a failing public school?
In a recent editorial by Tom Freidman that I unabashedly posted on the cafe a few days ago, Freidman makes mention of a new film by Davis Guggenheim called “Waiting For Superman”.
Guugenheim is the founder of the Harlem Children’s Zone which has used a comprehensive strategy, including a prenatal Baby College, social service programs and longer days at its charter schools “to forge a new highway to the future for one of New York’s bleakest neighborhoods.”
Freidman states in his editorial that “Guggenheim kicks off the film explaining that he was all for sending kids to their local public schools until “it was time to choose a school for my own children, and then reality set in. My feelings about public education didn’t matter as much as my fear of sending them to a failing school. And so every morning, betraying the ideals I thought I lived by, I drive past three public schools as I take my kids to a private school. But I’m lucky. I have a choice.”
The film’s core thesis, according to Freidman, “is that for too long our public school system was built to serve adults, not kids. For too long we underpaid and undervalued our teachers and compensated them instead by giving them union perks. Over decades, though, those perks accumulated to prevent reform in too many districts.”
So while I understand the skepticism of school reform, I think that the effort is more worth doing than the alternative, which is nothing. And perhaps the expectations are delusional as Samuelson suggests and we will never make scholars of students who don’t want it, but if at the very least we provide the opportunity, then as a society we are doing all we should be.
As to your anticipation of dread, I hope I didn’t let you down.

Tax:
I do have thoughts to share. My concern, though, is that you haven’t actually discussed specific ideas lately. While I do honestly appreciate sharing thoughts and ideas, I’m not sure you’ve been doing that.
Charter Schools, merit pay, school choice, and other topics you’ve mentioned are worthy of discussion. However, you seem lately to just mention the ideas, quote a few conservative thinkers, and disparage anyone who disagrees as a Liberal, and we all know how nasty Liberals are.
I’ve brought up some specific points, and your replies, as far as I can remember, have not addressed my specific pints, rather, you’ve just assumed that I am Liberal/Democrat/Socialist since I don’t agree with your generalized, partisan views.
One example – I mentioned my involvement in a local teacher’s unions. I became involved, not to blindly promote “typical union policies” but rather to make my voice head, and even to question union hard-liners. I gave at least one example, yet you just labeled me as pat of the problem with unions.
So let me try again to get you to discuss specific topics.
School choice. What are the benefits of school choice?
Charter Schools. I support them. Why do you?
Merit Pay. I’m fine with reliable teacher evaluations, but most public schools do not have the available resources. Budgets are being cut across the country, and getting rid of “unnecessary administrators” is a common theme. yet administrators are a necessary part of teacher evaluations, and merit pay.
I’ll take it one step further. Suppose a teacher has a class of students who have been performing well, scoring high on standardized tests, and they continue to do so with teacher “A”. Another teacher, teacher “B”, has a group of students who have done poorly on the same tests. Suppose the students who have been struggling, make appreciable improvements, but still do not score at the proficient or goal level of standardized tests. Who deserves merit pay?
Your assertion that “Liberals” do not consider the students “student success is more dependent on personal motivation and student accountability (values that liberals like to ignore)” is concerning to me. You seem caught up in Liberal vs. Conservative arguments, rather than effecting change.
Can you comment on your call for “expansion of technical/trade school systems, transformative changes to curriculum”?
I think I agre with some of your points, yet if I don’t fall into lock-step agreement with your rhetoric, and your references to conservative thinkers, I’m just a liberal and a problem.
And I’ll carry on. You also mentioned financial rewards for successful schools. you have pointed out that failing schools can attribute their difficulties to the students’ motivation and background. Successful schools are, generally speaking, a result of affluent communities and engaged parents. How does giving schools with ample resources more money help public education? I’m not for pouring money into poor schools without expectations of better performance, but sending more money to schools that don;t need it doesn’t make sense either. Remember that schools are not businesses. Public schools are what makes it possible for everyone to receive an education.
I agree about your “elephant in the kitchen” point. Do you have a solution?
JK- I have answered your questions numerous times and have corroborated my replies with links to others who are more knowledgeable and more eloquent. I have spent an exorbitant amount of time trying to make my case and I get no where.
The solutions are not easy, but there are those pioneers, like Michelle Rhee, who have shown some preliminary success and there are other brave patriots like Gov. Christie in NJ who are taking on the teacher’s union. The bottom line, I believe, is that we can no longer afford to continue with the status quo. While this shouldn’t mean that we rush into making broad change without considering all implications (like the Democrats do), we should not sit back and do nothing either, as you seem satisfied with doing.
AS to the “elephant in the kitchen”, this was created by liberals who, again, were short-sighted in seeing the long range implications of creating a nanny state and a public school system that rewards failure. The effects of these liberal policies have destroyed this country by creating a subculture that lacks family values, has little or no work ethic, lacks personal accountability, fails to assimilate, and offers little in return for everything that is given to them. The solution begins by recognizing this, changing public policy to prevent rewarding of this bad behavior, electing officials who possess conservative values, incrementally reforming the nanny state and the public education system to make them less cost prohibitive, rewarding schools and teachers that succeed, promote and support the institution of marriage, a hefty tax on cable TV companies (tongue and cheek), and finally, most importantly, begin systematically shipping liberals off to the island of Malta:)
….oh, and I almost forgot, tighten security on the Mexican border and enforce illegal immigration laws. The costs of not doing this is killing our schools and our hospitals. President Obama and the liberals have made it quite clear that they are pro-illegal immigration and will not enforce border control-because gaining the hispanic vote is more important than doing the right thing.
Tax, one observation that I have made from a number of your posts is that you make it sound that anything that comes from a “liberal” is a bad idea and has led to the weakening of this country. Hyperbole like that isnt true and pretending that one side has all of the answers is what is actually bad for this country.
Just a reminder of what “conservatives” have done for this country, let us remind ourselves of their record 2 years ago when they were running things:
1) The greatest economic disaster that this country faced since the Great Depression.
2) The weakening of the American dollar to its lowest point since the Civil War.
3) The greatest expansion in domestic programs since the Great Depression.
4) The greatest budget deficit since, well, Reagan.
5) Two failed wars. One we never should have fought because of gross incompetence (or lying) in the Republican led Executive Branch. While things have stabilized in Iraq, note that it took a virtual coup by the military to stand up to Bush/Rumsfield to change their policy that things werent so bad and we didnt need more troops.
6) A quadrupuling of oil costs during their tenure.
7) Nuclear weapons programs started by arch enemies North Korea and Iran.
We could go on and on but I think that I have made my point. So lets stay away from the rhetoric that all liberal ideas are bad. Conservatives have a very recent record of really nothing any good.
Dean-
Liberal ideas are good. Its the implementation that is often the problem. See, for example, the use of recent large stimulus program to pursue a wish list of spending rather than the best economic stimulus.
Tax:
You have made broad statements and backed them up by referring to other people’s articles. You have not addressed specificstatements/questions I’ve made.
Oh – as for the borders – wasn’t it a conservative president who granted amnesty to thousands of illiegal immigrants?
Doubtful, agreed. Too much money was spent on make work projects to just to try to spend money as fast as possible as opposed to investing the money in a gamechanger. All liberal ideas are not good, same as conservative. Remember tjhe Bridge to Nowwhere. And now republicans want us to buy a jet engine that the Pentagon has. Republicans waste our money too.
Dean-
You are equating conservatism with Republicanism. That is your first mistake and the one that undermines your entire argument.
Your second mistake is not doing your homework. Convenient historical revisionism coupled with bumper sticker rhetoric makes you come across as Rachel Maddow-and it isn’t pretty, nor particularly accurate. In fact, it’s a shade of Liberalism 101: Blame George Bush for Everything.
Maybe you could follow up with Liberalism 102: Name-calling and Race-Baiting. I’m sure John can give you lessons.
You know Taxpayer, just because the Republican Party is now throwing George Bush under the bus, doesn’t mean he didn’t create a lot of damage in 8 years!!!
JK- I’ve given you several examples of possible solutions and why I believe they could work. I’ve posted editorials from prominent reporters that support my views. I have posted an interview with the Education Secretary who outlines a plan that is similar to what I have suggested. I have posted updates from Michelle Rhee, DC Education Chancellor, who is putting these ideas to work and having great success. What more do you want from me?? I’m not going to write 50 page dissertation.
Now its your turn. What are your ideas and solutions to improving educational outcomes?
Good Thing-
I never said he didn’t. I voted for him because he was the lesser of two evils. Boy am I missing him now though.
Tax, the problem was that “conservatives” were the ones telling us to vote for Bush and his team. Liberals weren’t voting for him. So, the “conservatives” were just kidding? The fact is that the people they were telling us to vote for were failures. Now you want us to just go along with the conservatives again? How do we know that they aren’t kidding again? We vote for Palin, she screws up again, and then they say she isnt really a conservative? You are stuck with who you promote and vote for.
The only revisionist history is the fact the republicans, conservatives, whatever you want to call them, want to pretend that the Bush years weren’t a disaster. So Tax, you disagree that all of those things happened? Give us some specifics why? Don’t just use the current “conservative” rhetoric that this is just “historical revisionism”? So Bush didnt lead us into an unneeded war in Iraq? So Bush didnt ignore Afghanistan?
Give us some specifics why Bush wasnt so bad instead of labeling me as Maddow (who in my book is as harmful as Beck, palin, Limbaugh and the rest).
Also, since you are so anti-”liberal”, lets list a few good things that liberals fought for and “conservatives” fought against:
- Social Security
- Medicare
- Clean Water Act/Clean Air Act
- Public Education
- Civil Rights
Lastly, lets highlight some of the truly dumb things that your “conservatives” are now pushing and “liberals” are against.
- Government interference with religion (at least those not believed by our founding fathers)
- Deficit spending during times of economic prosperity and balanced budgets during times of economic depression
- Fiscal discipline and balanced budgets while cutting taxes but not reducing services.
- Reduced regulation of financial institutions
- Trickle Down Economics
Once again, lets quit pretending that “conservatives” have all of the answers.
1. It is extremely naive to blame President Bush for the economic disaster. The roots of the problem go way back and there is plenty of blame to go around both parties. From Carter’s Community Reinvestment Act, to Clinton’s deregulatory policies (Repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act), to the Democrat’s abuse of Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, to the exorbitance and greed of the Democratic unions.
2. It is much to early to speculate on the long term transformation of the Middle East as a direct result of American intervention in both wars. To call them failures is ridiculously premature.
3. Social Security, Medicare, and Public Education are great “liberal” contributions. Too bad they ran them into the ground and irresponsibly racked up their costs to the point of failure.
4. Other:
*Yes,deficit spending is a means of getting us out of this economic downturn, but the liberals have skyrocketed our deficits with no sifgnificant improvement. Why? Because as Doubtful said, they have spent money where money should not have been spent-special interests. The last $26 Billion Job Bill: $16 bill to bailout medicaid and the other $10 to preserve state worker jobs! This is why conservatives are calling for fiscal discipline.
*Trickle-Down economics work. Obama’s “trickle-up” policies have done nothing to create jobs. Jobs, jobs, jobs. Where are the jobs Dean?? Giving money to people who don’t create jobs will not decrease unemployment.
* Government interference with religion?? You’re right. I suppose not bowing down to a blackmailing Imam who blamed America for 9/11 and who fails to disclose the funding for his irreverent mosque is government interference. We should all just shut up about it and play the liberal political connectedness game while our enemies laugh their way to Sharia law.
I’m glad you are so trustful of organized religion. I’m not.
A Tax,
It’s “a bit” of a stretch to say that our public education system is run into the ground, or has a cost to the point of failure. I’m sure you can find some examples of that, particularly in a down economy, but that’s not the system as a whole.
I do find this point very interesting coming from you as you have been a strong proponent of Michelle Rhee here in the past and her implementation of merit pay programs. Her merit pay programs involved having much higher pay for the teachers that choose to participate. As you know the bulk of a school system’s spending is staff related and you have been advocating for someone’s programs which, if followed, would cause a dramatic increase to that input. So I guess what I’m saying is that I’m having some trouble reconciling your different statements. So is it just “liberal” increases in spending that are bad but the ones you agree with are good and would not run the system into the ground?
This is the problem I’ve had with the Republicans of on the federal level and why I now a hard time supporting them (though to be fair it was GWB that drove me away from Republicans). I always liked their lip service to fiscal conservatism but after watching them for a long time I never actually saw any real action. What I saw in practice is they complain about spending they don’t agree with but were more than happy to create just as much spending for things they do agree with. As the point was made earlier in the thread, when I voted for them I owned them and what they did. You can use whatever “no true Scotsman” fallacy you want to claim they are not real conservatives but at the end of the day you still end up supporting them and in that, you own them just like I own the actions of the people I support.
As fiscally conservative and socially liberal I’m unlikely to have many candidates on the federal level that support my views. So I’ll continue to put party aside and vote for whomever I think is best on a case by case basis. The hurdle the Republicans have for me at the national level is they are not fiscally conservative but they are increasingly socially conservative. The current party just doesn’t have a lot to offer me.
Thanks,
Kevin
This post represents my personal opinions and in no way should be considered an official act of the BoE or that I am speaking on behalf of the BoE in any way.
Kevin-
Points taken.
I have no problem spending more on education IF the money is spent wisely-if it is invested in a system that is efficient, accountable, and rewards schools,students and teachers for success. Our nation’s public school system does none of this with consistency or uniformity-and the results are showing as we slip behind in comparison to other countries. It is a failure on many levels, but most of all, it is a failure of a liberal, capitalistic value system where we think we can just spend our way out of any problem.
For the record, I am concerned about the direction of the establishment Republican party for many of the same reasons you are, and so are many other people- most notably the Tea Party. But this “disconnect” problem isn’t unique to just the GOP. I believe that the base of both parties are often frustrated when their politician do not live up to campaign promises but are rather, more beholden to special interest groups.
So while I truly understand your reasons for staying independent, I think its just the easy way out. True change will occur when, and only when, We The People, start playing an active role in OUR political parties. The sad part is, its so easy!
You don’t like the Republican party because it doesn’t have a lot to offer you?? Well, what have you done for the Republican party to help it suit your needs? Or better yet, where were you and the other Cafer’s last night for the WDTC fundraiser where you could have plugged the Democratic candidates and demanded answers to questions?? One guy in town, a notable liberal, asked the candidate for the state senate position what she will do to balance the state budget ( I loved it!) When she answered, he told her that he didn’t like her answer (neither did I by the way). It was awesome! Imagine if we all got together and asked these questions, demanded answers, let our candidates know what we expected. Imagine if we treated them the way we treat each other on the Cafe! But because this doesn’t happen, we don’t earn their respect. So while we vote for them (and you are right, we then “own them”-like it or not) -we end up in a conundrum of a relationship where we bear some responsibility for it, but at the same time, because we truly aren’t respected, get nothing out of it. Sort of like being married to a spouse abuser.
At the end of the day the bases of both parties are more similar than we think, but ironically, its the people we elect (and, of course, the bloodthirsty media) that fosters our divide. Or maybe its divide and conquer? But whatever it is, it isn’t healthy for We The People and most of all it isn’t healthy for our country.
A Tax,
I think we’ve had this discussion. I’d rather support people on a case by case basis but I can certainly respect trying to change things from the inside.
As for what party I’ll stick with for primaries it will be the Democrats. The social issues have become much too important to me as I get older and I just can’t support people who on the national level are diametrically opposed to my beliefs.
I still don’t consider the tea party much more than a populist movement of the Republican Party. I see too many people sniffing around like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin to take them seriously as any type of independent movement.
Thanks,
Kevin
This post represents my personal opinions and in no way should be considered an official act of the BoE or that I am speaking on behalf of the BoE in any way.
Tax:
I agree with a lot of what you and Kevin posted.
Just a thought though…elected officials are supposed to represent us, not just tell us what to do. I support and understand asking a candidate what will be done to balance the budget. But isn’t it also our responsibility to let candidates and elected officials know what we think?
Perhaps I am misreading the intent of your post, but asking someone a question and then criticizing their response is much less effective than letting someone know what you think should be done.
As for this statement you made-
“At the end of the day the bases of both parties are more similar than we think, but ironically, its the people we elect (and, of course, the bloodthirsty media) that fosters our divide.”
I couldn’t agree more.
JK- I agree, the second part of our responsibility, which you rightly mentioned, is contructively communicating with our officials our plans, hopes, desires. I wrongly omitted this important part of the equation.
Kevin- I hope your conservative side engages the Democrats.