From LibDem
Kevin makes an astute remark when he claims the brain’s propensity to look for patterns. I am reminded of Joseph Campbell’s book The Power of Myth where, amongst many themes, he notes that there is a universal propensity amongst cultures to try and make sense of this capricious world, to explain nature, to explain suffering, often in the form of stories, or myths. Campbell does not try to undermine religion or faith, but instead ties them to this universal need. Most interestingly, he notes the common and recurrent myths that prevail in most cultures (and very often pre-date Christianity) -creation, serpents, virgin births, resurrections, ascensions, the hero’s adventure, predetermination, gods/saints working behind the scenes, etc.
So when I read about a family’s belief that their prayers to Bishop Fulton Sheen saved their baby, I am reminded of man’s need to explain the inexplicable. To inject the supernatural into something that can be explained by science, if we had all of the facts. This reinforces for me the importance of teaching our children critical thinking skills in order to discern claims, to evaluate the science and to question the myths.
Interestingly, just last week the Texas Republican Party platform came out against teaching critical thinking skills in Texan schools:
“Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.”
This type of coercion seeks to keep people in the dark, to maintain the status quo,to preserve power structures, to deny people the ability to challenge myths.
Although Bishop Fulton Sheen was notably quite progressive in his time, when I watch his old televangelism series (you can find them on youtube), I see a similar pattern that uses theolatry in the same way. I am reminded of all the things I never liked about catholicism that strangely resemble the things I do not like about republicanism- its patriarchal nature, its dogmatic approach to issues, its condescending hubris, its failure to field questions or promote critical thinking, its insistence on their morality authority, its resistance to recognizing science because it would undermine their power.
When Bishop Sheen spoke, most mightily,the flock merely listened. He appears to me when I watch him now to have been the Rush Limbaugh of the Catholic Church. But since people need their myths and their hero’s, the church, like the republican party, are more than willing to give the people what they want.
I think this is the same dynamic at work.
People, with limited information, seek an explanation for phenomena they struggle to understand, especially when it affects them directly and profoundly. The explanation gets repeated over and over and over, and soon there is a “crowd effect”; people gather around the explanation because it reliefs them of the unknown. And then some emerge to protect the explanation, and facts that present a challenge to the explanation result in demonization of those presenting it.
I think this has played out in our political system with the rightward shift of the Republican Party over the past three decades, beginning in the Reagan administration. No matter what contrary evidence or logic is presented, the Republican party faithful believe that Democrats increase budget deficits, won’t defend our country by fighting wars, and are responsible for periods of economic downturns due to their policies. I remember arguing with someone over the Carter budget deficits, which were shrinking, and showing a hard copy of the official summary U.S. Budget printed by the U.S. Government Printing
Office, and they looked at it and said “I don’t believe it”. (This person had graduated with honors with a degree in politics from Yale.). Li,Swiss, the Clinton administration reduced deficits, then produced a surplus three years running. And the Obama administration has likewise reduced annual deficits each year. I don’t think there is a Republican in the country who would acknowledge these
facts.
Likewise, WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam were all initiated by Democratic administrations, and it was Truman and Kennedy who faced down the Soviets in Cold War and nuclear confrontations, and Obama who knocked out the entire leadership of Al Quaeda, but somehow the Democrats struggle for credibility on national security issues.
I don’t think it is a coincidence that this started with Reagan, who was described by his chosen biographer, Edmund Morris, as being in something of a dream state for most of his adult life. I think the Republican learned from this that they could market almost anyone for the job if they were presented as the solution to a psychic crisis, I.e., as a mythic figure.
LibDem,
What a fool I’ve been.
I’ve spent days here trying to show you, even quoting you text from the official teachings of the Catholic Church, that the Catholic Church is not “resistant to recognizing science”. Despite that, all you can do is respond with a laundary list of accusations against the Church and a rant about Bishop Sheen.
I hold as steadfast to my beliefs as you do to yours, so if you want to continue to believe that faith is nothing more than “the brain’s propensity to look for patterns”, that’s entirely your perogative.
What I will not continue to put up with is you bashing my religion simply because you misunderstand it and don’t like it.
If you can’t find a way to dissent that is respectful, there’s no point in my continuing this discussion. JTO and Kevin don’t agree one bit with me either, but Kevin has always been respectful and JTO has toned it down here lately. At least they aren’t so blatantly condescending as to be deliberately insulting. I have not once heard Kevin bash the Church in order to make his point.
Objecting to organized religion is one thing. Targeting one religion in particular for the purpose of maligning it, and those who practice it, is another thing completely.
I am not just part of some “flock” of followers who “merely listens” and “needs myths and heros” to get through life, all without so much as a trace of a critical thought in my head.
Do you not see how offensive that is? Seriously??!!
Like I said here once before a long time ago, even a church lady has limits. I’ve allowed you to push me well past mine in an effort for us to come to some mutual understanding and respect for another person’s beliefs and their right not to believe.
I see now that I’ve clearly wasted your time and mine.
Newcomer, This is the second time you’ve freaked over statements by others. Comment 51 under “the 15%” is the other example. I didn’t read LibDem’s statement as targeting you. His statement was novel in its ideas and this caused me to post it as an article. If you have spent some time in Texas and/or Oklahoma, LibDem’s statement makes more sense. The charisma of Bishop Sheen is well known, even by me.
Today’s winner of the fabulous Nathan’s Hot Dog eating contest ate 68 hot dogs in 10 minutes. This proves to me, once again, the propensity for people to easily swallow anything that is fed to them. We can apply this to religion and we can apply this to politics. Doing so is not an assault on the believer/victim, although their indignation when dispelling these myths makes one think that it is personal. Case in point is Newcomer’s response.
Jared Bernstein, former Chief Economist and Economic Adviser to Vice President Joseph Biden in the Obama Administration, notes in his blog today that “the disciplined creation of the Republican meme (myth) comes directly from the playbook of Republican pollster Frank Luntz:
“…there’s a simple rule: You say it again, and you say it again, and you say it again…and about the time that you’re absolutely sick of saying it is about the time that your target audience has heard it for the first time.”
Bernstein was referring to a Huffington Post story that shows the use of the term “Job Killer” had dramatically spiked in prominent newspapers since President Obama took office.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/job-killer-claims-usually_n_1596620.html
The studies show that the claims are unsubstantiated and that they usually center around the following progressive issues:
Environmental regulations
Financial reform
Health care reform
Labor Unions
Tax Code changes
Student Loan reform
Minimum Wage increases
…you got the idea. Anything that may help the middle class.
So by repeating their rhetoric over and over and over, the Republicans have created a set of myths that their base have swallowed like hot dogs soaked in water.ad nauseum. JTO points out several of these, here is a list of Republican myths: (we can spend a year on the cafe dispelling them!)
The Reagan Myth
The Trickle Down Myth
Liberals are Tax and Spenders Myth
The Global Warming Uncertainty Myth
Social Security is Going Broke Myth
Obama is a Socialist Myth
Republicans Have Strong Moral Values Myth
Republicans Are Fiscally Conservative Myth
Republicans Take Care of Veterans Myth
Collecting Unemployment Creates Laziness Myth
So whether we are talking about religion or politics, the lesson to be learned is the importance of developing critical thinking skills in our students. The first lesson for them is: don’t believe everything you hear. Second: Question everything. Third: Expect facts and evidence to back up claims.
This may seem perfectly obvious to most of the Cafe readers, but Texas is not that far from Woodstock. At last years Conversation on Education in Woodstock, the topic of preparing our students to decimate information and develop critical thinking skills was a focal point. A core planner for this conversation was approached by a local with the claim that this was a “socialist endeavor”- or something of the sort. So it seems that The Socialism is Evil myth is alive and well in Woodstock and critical thinking is something that, like the Texas GOP purports, should be feared.
NC – the Catholic Church has been responsible for some of the most horrific crimes in history, including centuries of European warfare, the Inquisition, genocidal wars in the Middle East, acquiescence to the Jewish Holocaust, and, more currently, the stomach-turning organizational conspiracy to cover up the crimes of depraved child molesters. And all this, in direct contradiction of the teachings of Christ, Thomas Aquinas or other Catholic theologians, all for the purpose of consolidating and maintaining the power and wealth of this institution, perhaps the wealthiest in the world. If you don’t like hearing it, tough bananas.
When it has been suggested to you that there should be some limits on your preaching your beliefs to our children in the public schools, based on the law or the Constitution which we all live by for the purpose of maintaining a civil
society, you have breezily dismissed these concerns and obstinately persist in your demands.
When it is suggested that you expand your horizons a bit and study BOTH sides of the issue (Religion AND Reason) through the writings of the greatest thinkers in western civilization, you reject without examination the the REASON
side of the debate as somehow questionable.
And in all cases you believe YOU are somehow being persecuted as you bombard the readership with your blog -sourced religious fundamentalist pablum.
Spoken like a true Christian Evangelist, I suppose.
“Republican political doctrine is “Keep it simple and keep repeating it”.
Just picked up Eric Hoffer’s The True Believer-thoughts on the nature of mass movements. One can begin to understand the mass delusion of religion and of recent American Conservatism when seen in the light of being mass movements.
Hoffer notes that the creed whose legitimacy is most easily challenged is likely to develop the strongest proselytizing impulse. It is also plausible that that those movements with the greatest inner contradictions between profession and practice-that is to say with a strong feeling of guilt- are most likely to be the most fervent in imposing their beliefs onto others.
It is interesting to note the extremely rigid stance both the republican party and the catholic church have taken, despite that it comes at a time when both have faced its gravest challenges as a result of their gravest failures. One would think they would have had more humble, more reconcilliatory approach. But no.
This tells us a lot about their true natures, their true motives.
You are mistaken to try to apply critical thinking to religions. Religions require faith. Critical thinking and religions do not recognize one another. The most that you can hope for is that they tolerate one another.
I have said before that I think the thought process of the Christian fundamentalists has invaded the Republican party, so now it’s Christian fundamentalist morals imposed on others, while those imposing it are often sinners and hypocrites. And this “fundamentalist” mentality has been extended to interpretations of the Constitution and the field of Economics.
So the first order of business for the Republicans is to seek to impose religion in public schools to indoctrinate the children before they learn critical thinking skills and then to go after gay marriage, abortion and birth control. This mentality seemed to consolidate under George Bush II, a Christian fundamentalist.
Then they go after the courts and their evolved interpretation of the Constitution. While the Constitution was designed to evolve, and to be interpreted by the courts, Tom DeLay, Speaker of the House and a Christian fundamentalist, kept a copy of the Constitution in his suit jacket breast pocket, as if this overcame his professional background as a rodent exterminator and empowered him, rather than the courts, as the proper source of interpretation of the Constitution based on his uninformed reading.
Now we have Grover Norquist, a local accountant from Akron, Ohio, never elected to any office, running around like the Grand Inquisitor with his no-tax pledge list, insisting that he is certain we need to reduce taxes but, like the mysteries of the faith, never explaining how or why, and with no understanding of the workings of the economy or the financial system.
So they wish to control the nation’s morals, make the rich richer and block any redress of the working middle class through the democratic system or the courts. Positively medieval.
Harry-
You are partly correct. For a “believer” critical thinking would likely cause a degree of cognitive dissonance which would place his faith in jeopardy.
However, for the non-believers, the skeptics, the curious, the seekers of knowledge and truth, critical thinking is imperative.
Harry – I tend to agree with you regarding fundamental issues of faith. But by the same token, faith is not an appropriate approach to law, economics, public policy or our governance of ourselves. And that is where the Republican party has brought us.
To move from the realms of faith and science to our local scene – would it be feasible to start an endowment for the Woodstock public schools.
I have in mind a fund to which, eventually, the superintendent and the board of education could turn to for important,basic items uncovered by the taxpayers and the Woodstock Education Foundation.
Harry, while I agree with you on the need to endow the WPS — it is a public school system after all. Isn’t it the responsibility of the town to provide adequately and wishfully (or wistfully), well?
It seems that the majority of the voters are not willing to provide adequately, to say nothing of providing well.
There are limits as to what private funds can be used for in a public school system. Perhaps Kevin would know the details?
And the only topic I’ve found to be more divisive and polarizing than politics is religion/faith. I’m often amazed at the intolerance from folks when discussing religion.
Harry-
The WEF, PTO, and Jog For Judy typically fund enrichment/extracurricular activities for the students. The taxpayers fund for basic needs and should be held accountable for doing so as Mary Lou suggests.
However, there are most likely a number of capital projects that get put off year after year in which a private donation/endowment would most likely prove to be helpful. Not sure of the regulations that surround such private to public initiatives but I am sure the Superintendent could help you out.
A Bing search indicates that there are existing public school endowments – from Santa Fe to Northhampton, MA.
I am unable to undertake the establishment of one in Woodstock.
I wonder if the Woodstock Education Foundation
would be willing to initiate an endowment division.
John’s #3: Newcomer, This is the second time you’ve freaked over statements by others… I didn’t read LibDem’s statement as targeting you.
I disagree with you, John. Since NC is the only spokesperson for the CC on the Café, when LD criticizes Catholics as a flock that merely listens and Sheen as the Rush Limbaugh of the CC, especially when his point has already been made and these criticisms are totally gratuitous, she is well within reason to take those insults as personal.
It seems to me that when LD continually bashes the CC and its followers, despite reasoned and polite explanations from NC, he is practicing exactly the same dogmatic approach, the same condescending hubris, and the same insistance on HIS morality authority [sic] of which he accuses the Church faithful.
When it comes to things that LD believes, he takes the stance that they are absolutely true, much like any other person of faith. He presented a list of “Republican myths” as if the items listed were totally untrue but not all of them are. For instance, Global Warming is NOT attributed to human activities by all scientists in the field. Nevertheless the “humans are responsible for Global Warming” crowd just won’t even consider the possibility that GW is a cyclical phenomenon of far greater magnitude than anything we puny humans could effect. In fact, they are so convinced, some of their scientists had no problem with falsifying data to “prove” their case. Social Security going broke? When your obligations to pay out funds in the future exceed the funds you will have available at that time, what else can you call it but going broke? The moral values of Republicans are just as strong as those of Democrats. They’re just not mine or LD’s values. The one about collecting unemployment benefits is too narrowly phrased. Collecting welfare with no quid pro quo is like having a contract with no consideration. The effects are negative. Witness the generations within families who just can’t seem to get off welfare. That is a real and troubling phenomenon and calling it a Republican myth does nothing to encourage people to address and hopefully correct it.
Thank you, Diane.
I’m glad you are at the Cafe. It’s nice to engage in discussions and explore our differences without making it personal. Your participation here is a stabilizing force and an enjoyable one at that.
You’re a class act.
John- Here is an article if you want to post it as one. Your discretion. Partly a response to Diane, but mostly about an interesting story.
Title: Get Off Your High Horse and Start Riding the Bus
I read a colorful sidewalk blackboard sign the other day that said “Your beliefs don’t make you a good person, your behavior does.”
Such a simple but profound bit of wisdom.
Compared to the catechisms, the mandates, the edicts, the sanctions, the ex-communications, the insurrections, the indulgences, the tithing, the reconciliation, the communions, this, I thought, is all we really need to know. That behavior is what really matters. Love is not belief. It is not faith. It is not duty. Love is action.
I’ve been following the Nuns On A Bus movement for a few weeks because I believe they are putting love into action. Specific action with a specific plan that engages all citizens and challenges all politicians. For these nuns, merely saying a rosary for the poor is so 1500′s.
These nuns are not proselytizing, they are not preaching, they are not praying for “sinners”. They are less concerned about school prayer, gay marriage, and birth control and more concerned about matters that directly hurt people.
For those of you who are not been following this story, this is a group of Roman Catholic nuns who began a two week, nine-state, 2700 mile tour on a bus. The nuns visited soup kitchens, homeless shelters and congressional offices, highlighting the social service work of other nuns and protesting the House Republican budget, which they consider immoral.
I love these nuns.
They are not proselytizing, they are not preaching, they are not praying for “sinners”. Instead, they are taking the elephant (no pun intended)by the tail and taking their fight to the streets.
They are protesting federal budget called for by Republicans, who’s policies, they believe, will greatly affect low-income families.
These nuns aren’t just getting the word out. They have a formed a lobbying campaign, complete with a 53-page “faithful budget” that outlines their own fiscal priorities in considerable detail, backed by an interfaith coalition of social justice groups.
So what was the Vatican’s response to this movement?
Just what you would expect:
The Vatican charged these nuns with promoting radical feminism and being out of touch with church teachings.
In a recent Vatican report, they claimed that “some organizations” led by nuns have focused too much on economic injustice while failing to promote the church’s teachings on abortion and same-sex marriage. The Vatican asked U.S. bishops to look into this movement.
So I think back on the little billboard sign that stated “Your beliefs don’t make you a good person, your behavior does.”
The nuns get this. Love is action.
The Vatican, like the Republican party, however, are less about action and more about protecting power, pontificating morality, absconding responsibility, and avoiding accountability. History has shown pattern amongst both organizations over and over and over.
For the faithful who take this criticism personally, they should get off their high horse and start riding a bus.
LibDem,
There is some background about the Catholic Church in the U.S. that you may or may not be aware of…. (see Newcomer’s new article. Admin).