From Con
With regard to welfare recipients and other so-called entitlements, I have never heard a critic able to back up thier myth-assertions with actual facts and true figures. It’s always the same value judgment, ‘I am a better American’ attitude citing the “food stamp queen” buying six-packsm cigarettes and steaks. It boils the blood.
True ‘gaming’ of that system does occur, but the numbers are all but statistically insignificant in relation to GDP.
What’s so much worse is the vast cover-up of how Defense Contractors truly ‘gamed’ the system to the tune of literally hundreds and hundreds of Billions of tax dollars. Nightline (Hue Dobbs?) was one of many investigative reports on what crimes, fraud, over charging, ‘cost-plus’ purchasing and all manner of legal stealing occurred in Iraq alone.
But the system is set on ‘Mute’ and taxpayers stand little chance of ever learning the truth because of the Revolving Door by and between The White House / Congress / The Pentagon / and the CEO’s and Board of Directors at these mega-companies buying and selling Defense Contracts at staggering sums of tax dollars.
Nightline (or one similar report) gave a simple example (among so very many!) of a $175,000 Mercedes Truck that was literally abandoned (to ‘deny the enemy’) because of a blown head gasket. The Contractors had zero incentive, actually ‘opposing’ incentive, because they purchased the truck using Cost-Plus: if the real cost of the truck was $125,000 the Contractor was paid $175,000 to make the purchase.
If and when it breaks down, they are given huge incentives to abandon and/or destroy it because then they get to buy another one for equal profit as the first! Another example among hundreds was the story of Haliburton hired to provide clean water for those troops risking their lives – they failed so miserably that a sample of shower water indicated levels of dangerous pathogens so egregious it was likened to the worst of a given 3rd world African country using well water downstream from open sewers.
It goes on and on and no one has ever tried to recoup that stolen money – charging troops $25 for a six pack of Coke (made locally, as most all Coke is, at a real cost of less than $5 a six pack); troops forced to submit a tiny bag of laundry (they were prohibited from doing own wash, even though do-it-yourself was far more effective) and Uncle Sam was charged a huge amount PER BAG (they were very small mesh bags which were dumped as-is into washer).
So when I hear some pontificating buffoon asserting that Welfare Queens are having babies on purpose for the extra $325 per month (HUH!?!) and selling food stamps for pennies on the dollar so they can ‘get their drink on’ and all manner of infuriating, patronizing, bigoted MYTH, I challenge them to name the dollar amount spent on Defense Contractors and what America received for each dollar.
Amazingly, they most often go ‘straight to accusation’ as in “don’t you support the troops!?!” as though Fraud against America is tantamount to Patriotism. I wish I had recorded that Nightline episode and the many similar investigative reporting on the subject.
Obviously, it’s a real peeve of mine and I cannot abide the notion that Voters believe such egregious lies and choose to not only ignore, but actually SUPPORT the Defense firms egregious and fraudulent behavior to the tune of hundreds of Billions of tax dollars per year.
Just don’t get me started…
The greed of some defense contractors does create a huge problem There are so many fingers in the pie it’s almost impossible to stop. What is worse is that the corruption undermines our trust in government.
I don’t disagree with you in the least about defense contractors. But, while perhaps no one does a calculation to “have a baby for the extra $325 a month” our welfare system certainly does not give the incentive to practice birth control that is so desperately needed.
In the Depression, unemployed people had fewer children. Times have changed.
There is a new book out called “The Betrayal of the American Dream” by reporters Jim Steele and Don Barlett, which chronicles the decline of the middle class due to public policy. The authors cite unrestricted free trade agreements, deregulation of industry, undermining of the unions, and regressive tax policies as the primary culprits. Now, the corporate titans that popularized these policies through right wing, laissez faire-oriented think tanks which they funded, and who almost completely eradicated the private pension system, are seeking to extend the retirement age from 65 to 70 years and lower benefits for retirees in order to rebalance the system’s finances.
And once again we have a presidential candidate who is attempting to shift the attention – and the anger – of the broad middle class toward the “welfare queens” as if this were the cause of their circumstances.
I mean, you have to hand it to them – that is if they get away with it.
I should point out that the “$325 a month” number I cite was merely for illustration. I really don’t know what the real numbers are (though I certainly don’t believe welfare checks represent a windfall or that being on Welfare is an attractive lifestyle for anyone). which is an important point when discussing these issues. Critics, especially, don’t seem to have a clue about facts and specifics and they certainly don’t cite them for support of their argument (again, it’s always some anectdote judging others for “buying Lobster dinners with Food Stamps, etc.). I’d be very interested to know what the true facts and figures are.
There’s currently a Wefare ‘article’ (really an Opinion rants) on humanevents.com and the Comment Section has some incredible statements by readers – ideas like “deny any Welfare leech the Right to Vote for as long as they receive MY tax dollars!”, as well as “mandatory Drug Testing”, etc. The themes that underlies many of the nastier comments seem to relate to a feeling of smug superiority, a desire to punish and especially the desire to deny recipients certain Constitutional rights and thereby render them ‘less than’ a Full Citizen.
It’s kind of shocking to realize just how much bias and bitter anger there is against recipients, especially while ignoring how tax money is spent on plenty of other controversial and costly programs. “Leeches!” comes up over and over and it seems shameful to me. I know these comments represent the far side of the spectrum, but these so-called ‘Constitutional Purists’ don’t seem self-aware regarding what they are really advocating with notions like “deny them the right to Vote” OR that the Constitutional rights and privileges afforded to all American Citizens are part and parcel of what it means to be a Citizen, Equal in all respects under the Law and Constitution – and that it is impossible to separate or divide these rights into a laundry list and assign them separate values to use denial as penalty or a crazy notion of incentive.
Commentators who elsewhere talk about how Liberty can never be compromised fail to see any connection between the denial of Voting rights and the corresponding compromise of Liberty. I realize it’s just another form of Cherry Picking and sophism to support their angry bias, assumptions and conclusions – they start with their belief that recipients should somehow be punished and then search for any way to support the denial of rights of their Fellow American Citizens (and their buried assumption that it’s OK under such circumstances to advocate that all Citizens are NOT equal).
Con-
Do you believe then that if one is on the public dole one has the moral, and should have the legal, right to have children to be supported by further welfare payments? Am I biased and bitterly angry to think not?
There are people who game the system, whatever that system is – the public dole, defense contracts, hedge funds, you name it. These people are ignorant of moral and legal rights.
Harry hit the nail on the head. Nobody wants to see anyone take advantage of any government program. I believe that there are people who take advantage of welfare, food stamps, unemployment, and other programs that are intended to help people out in times of dire need. On the other hand, or perhaps the same hand, there are corporations and other well-to-do people who sell hammers, toilets, and other goods to the government at criminally inflated prices. Folks on both sides of the political spectrum can exchange accusations. Some of those accusations will have merit, and others not so much.
UNRELATED NOTE: ON THE WEBSITE ‘WND.COM’ there is an article I encourage everyone to read (especially the Comments Section!) Titled “RACE RIOTS MEDIA WON’T TALK ABOUT” – it is chock full of egregiously racist theory, comments, etc. In Reviewing several far right websites recently I keep coming across this kind of article and the accompanying over-the-top racist Comments. I don’t understand it and I wonder how many Americans are actually thinking this way and believing what’s laid out as Fact. Has anyone else noticed this incredibly disconcerting rise in this rhetoric?
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Doubtful,
Based on my understanding of what the Welfare System is meant to be and it’s role in American Society, I do think children should be supported, (though there’s strong support for the idea of a moral obligation to forego having children whose support is a direct burden on taxpayers). As a matter of public policy, America made the choice to create this System rather than choosing a ‘sink or swim’ policy that would result in Citizens falling through the cracks while the rest of us does little or nothing to help.
So given that there is a system in place, I think all recipients ought to be treated equally within that system and I don’t think that recipients should be treated by Society like 2nd class citizens, though plenty of people definitely think of them in this way. But every question comes back to and depends on that initial question: What IS the Welfare System, exactly? Is it strictly a temporary helping hand? Is it a kind of comprehensive social insurance? Is it a permanent Safety Net for those incapable of ever supporting themselves? Does it represent America’s decision to do for those who cannot do for themselves in an unqualified manner and without forcing value judgments regarding how they must live and the Liberty they are ‘allowed’? The imposition of value judgments and even necessary limitations are not simple and have serious implications: for example, if children are not to be covered, doesn’t that have the effect of creating pressure for women to choose abortions for unplanned pregnancies?
Con – As a conservative, I too read the opposition because it is informative and enlightening. And, like you, I see outrageously over the top suggestions and criticisms IN THE COMMENTS section. The articles are usually interesting and thought-provoking.
The answer maybe this. Did you know people are PAID to vote “Like” on Facebook? And to write comments on websites? As I read the more egregious posts, I mentally picture a freelancer.com employer paying these people to write inflamatory comments.
Diane,
I have heard of that but never given it much credence. The actual comments to which I refer are not those of Conservatives – I’m not even sure how to characterize the website WND (or even humanevents )because most comments and their run of the mill assumptions about what’s OK to say are SO far over the top it’s incredible.
PLEASE – take the 7 minutes and go to that website and article just to read the comments. They are from a different country, not from America – the comment section is ‘weapons free’ when it comes to open use of racial slurs (like “savages, animals, smaller brains, developed in Africa as purely physical hunters so never developed intelligence or ability to think, these thugs will have a surprise if they do kill all the whites because the will be unable to operate any of the complex systems or technology because they lack innate intelligence or thinking skills” – and these are tame compared to the most extreme comments…
Con- I’ve gone to that website in the past, on your urging, and frankly I don’t understand why you keep going back. Isn’t the surprise of witnessing ignorance, bigotry and racism over for you yet?
As to the welfare system, I’ve always thought that its function was more to serve as an opiate. Essentially enslaving millions of people into just above poverty level, but enough to keep them quiet. Add drugs, limited access to quality education and healthcare, and voila you have yourself a powerless marginalized subculture. This design stems back to the post civil war reconstruction and is, to me at least, a constant reminder of our nation’s racist and classist history. Not surprisingly, the Republicans exploit this racism/classism for political gain. Blame welfare for all our problems and ignore the elephant in the kitchen.
….and if welfare doesn’t keep the masses quiet, then we’ll develop an enormous prison system for them…
From the New York Times (Nov. 2011):
“The United States has 2.3 million people behind bars, almost one in every 100 Americans. The U.S. prison population has more than doubled over the past 15 years, and one in nine black children has a parent in jail.
Proportionally, the United States has four times as many prisoners as Israel, six times as many as Canada or China, eight times as many as Germany and 13 times as many as Japan.
With just a little more than 4 percent of the world’s population, the United States accounts for a quarter of the planet’s prisoners and has more inmates than the leading 35 European countries combined. Almost all the other nations with high per capita prison rates are in the developing world.”
Libdem,
The initial sensation from visiting those websites is gone, yes. Does that then mean that Apathy should be our next goal, while ignoring the egregious nature of what we just saw and read? It’s NOT merely that it exists, big surprise, it’s that such a website that supports thousands of separate Commentators for it’s numerous, changing daily Articles containing some of the most extremist and over the top statements and language that I’ve ever seen.
Are you saying that you are comfortable, OK with it and totally Complacent? If you’re NOT complacent then you need to explain your point. If you are Complacent and haven’t determined the actual numbers of such people all across America Are you fully knowledgeable regarding the actual numbers of people in America who are thinking that way? Where they are; their websites and their messages? You seem rather flippant regarding what to me represents a threat of the worst kind – one that is created by Americans themselves.
DO YOU have actual authority regarding all of this? If so, what is your authority?
I’d rather find out as much as possible about the actual numbers involved; after all, these people could very well represent America when you awake late November.
Con-
Being more a pragmatist than a reactionary, I recognize my personal limitations for creating widespread change, particularly by November.
The battle against bigotry, ignorance and racism is one that has been around a long time will not be won overnight-or over a website.
But recall with hope that just four years ago, we elected our first black President. That was huge and we have come a long way in this country in tempering racism and sexual discrimination. Certainly there is a long way to go, but strides are being made and they are being made one step at a time.
For me this means reaching out at a local level. Taking a look at myself and my own biases, creating thoughtful change in my own family, amongst my friends and co-workers-then allowing the ripple effect to carry the torch.
Battling out on the Human Events website may hold some personal gains, but I am increasingly skeptical about my ability of changing the hearts and minds of strangers on a radical website fraught with ignorance and anger- something that I really don’t believe reflects the broader majority in our country.
If I’m wrong, so be it, but even of Mitt Romney were to be elected, I really don’t think it would be on the grounds that he represents a racist majority. I don’t like Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan’s economic policies, but I don’t think that they are radical racists.
I don’t mean to negate your concerns. It is quite alarming to witness widespread ignorance, so I understand your fear and grief. I share those feelings as well. A family member of mine has been personally victimized by racism, so I understand to a small degree the danger that it poses. But we must put it into right perspective and realize that a local pragmatic approach is probably our best option. We are not alone in this fight.
How do you respond to an extreme, unreasonable, hateful comment or opinion ? Is it even possible to do so. Maybe it’s better not to engage; perhaps arguing serves only to energize the venom.
Here are some welfare stats from the 2010 U.S. Census….(see JTO’s new article. Admin).
LibDem,
We agree, as I thought we did. Bottom line is we are saying different things – I agree that the time I spend arguing in those extremist comment sections is a waste of my time and achieves next to nothing (and I’ve sat down ‘for 5 minutes’ and found that 4 hours have gone by it can be so engaging, but like McDonald’s food I feel immediate remorse for my behavior as soon as I’ve finished).
My main point is that lately it’s felt like there is something like a groundswell of this garbage and I’m concerned that larger and larger numbers of Americans are swayed by that rhetoric. I may be wrong and hope I am – the problem is I can’t figure a dependable way to find out. The nature of that rhetoric and especially those types of people are such that there is no way to determine who they are and how many. Smoke and mirrors are such an integral part of everything they say and most only express their true colors anonymously, so they remain an invisible group (maybe there is some new kind of Drone on display in Las Vegas this week that can pick them out…)
OK. Well. You and JTO have remotivated me and I’ll bring this issue one small step forward into the local arena. What else can one do? It’ll cost me a little anonymity, but what the hell. Perhaps one changed mind at a time is worth it. If you only knew how far I’ve come from the generosity of others.