From A Student
Thanks for the advice (LibDem). I do pay attention to what’s being said here, and I enjoy reading what both sides have to say about everything. Oftentimes, watching comments supporting a view I oppose strengthen my own view, or change it, while at the same time enhancing my understanding of what other people think.
So no, I don’t balk at these debates, and from them (and personal experience) I have learned that, when it comes to religion, people’s minds can rarely be changed, and they dislike opposing viewpoints. I’m just glad that I have the ability to accept that other people believe what they do and hope that more and more people will in the future, and beyond having one conversation with someone that is controversial, to leave it alone and let them revise their opinion or simply be enlightened and more understanding and accepting.
As I said in another thread, I’ve spent a lot of time in Catholic, Congregational, and Baptist churches, and they’ve all jabbed at each other at one point or another.
Overall, my view of religion is this: Nobody is right. Nobody CAN be right, considering how many conflicting ideas there are out there. For example, a Catholic priest led me to believe that Catholics should do their best to spread the word of God to nonbelievers, and if they choose to live a more religious life, to help them with their journey, if not, that’s between them and God. I’ve learned at a Baptist church that the nonreligious are poisonous and must be avoided, else they’ll drag me to hell with them. Meanwhile, East Woodstock Congregational is opening and affirming (to gays/lesbians), whereas the Baptists and Catholics are vehemently opposed to that, as is the Eastford Congregational Church, which scorns East Woodstock for not going by the Bible in general.
And these are all Christian churches! If they can’t come in agreement with how God wants us to live our lives, perhaps that gives more credibility to the Atheists; if nobody knows exactly what God’s will is, perhaps that means there is no God and no will of God.
And so, in my head, this is how controversy works. If there’s so much of it, there can’t be a definite answer. I find myself a happier person if I realize that, if I can’t make my own opinion because there’s so much conflicting evidence and plenty of argument for either case, I won’t bother myself thinking about it too much, just do whatever feels right (such as based on picking and choosing certain ideas from each church and forming my own way of doing things and treating others) and not worry about trying to get everyone else to think the same way.
(Last paragraph updated) Of course, if governments worked this way, nothing would ever get done. Oh, wait a minute — they spend their lives bickering day in and day out about “controversial issues” and laying blame and nothing does get done that has any great impact!I hate controversy. We can argue about how to do something, or how to solve a problem, so that the outcome ends up being what is honestly the best thing with all the right intentions and will produce the best outcome for the majority of people, but if the result is mediore and/or really does nothing to change anybody’s lives (such as arguing about religion; living a religion changes people’s lives, not arguing it), it’s worthless to me.
Student-
WE are all on a journey toward discovering the truth. Some of us require evidence, others of us are OK with make believe. THere is no harm in either approach unless one decides that they are so right that they try to push their beliefs onto others. Your journey is your own business, but for your own sake, I would advice you look into atheism as diligently as you have looked into religion. Some suggested reading would include works by Christopher Hitchens, Susan Jacoby, Sam Harris, Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and Ayn Rand.
Sorry, my scattered writing process got the better of me in the second-to-last paragraph, which should be:
I hate controversy. We can argue about how to do something, or how to solve a problem, so that the outcome ends up being what is honestly the best thing with all the right intentions and will produce the best outcome for the majority of people, but if the result is mediore and/or really does nothing to change anybody’s lives (such as arguing about religion; living a religion changes people’s lives, not arguing it), it’s worthless to me.
Take three….
*mediocre
A Student,
I’ve found one of the best ways to learn and understand people with different viewpoints is through debate. The objective isn’t necessarily to convince then, though sometimes it may be. More often the objective is to understand their position and believe it or not to better understand your own. There is no better way to temper the mettle of your beliefs that to expose them to the forge of opposing viewpoints. If you are intellectually honest you will quickly discern which of your own beliefs are on a solid footing.
For example, Diane has a point in her complaint that the information I bring forth on MT only comes from a few sources. There could be many explanations for that and a possible one is sour grapes. It’s good to acknowledge that to myself so I come out in the debate better than when I entered it despite having changed no one’s mind.
Of course, in a legislative body the goal is to change minds to create action. You are correct that there endless debate is not productive. For such a body having a membership that is fundamentalist about their beliefs and unwilling to be swayed or compromise is detrimental to the ability of the body to function. That’s what we unfortunately have now.
Thanks,
Kevin
Exactly, Kevin. By trying to write persuasively you learn how well you understand what you are talking about. Many times I write about something to understand my own position better. For example, I don’t expect Newcomer to agree with me on our Origin but I benefit from clarifying my own thoughts and knowledge which validate my beliefs.
A Student,
Since this is the second time that you’ve posted comments along a similar train of thought, it leads me to believe that you are genuinely trying to sort through these matters. And it seems to me that you may have reached a crossroad that is normal and healthy for someone just beginning adulthood. By your own description, you were exposed to a few different denominations of Christianity as a child/teen. Now you are a young adult and it seems (based on your questions and statements here) that you have reached the point where you realize that it’s time to decide for yourself if you believe in God or not. Instead of believing in God because others taught you to, now it’s time to make up your own mind and own it – one way or the other. Along with the question of God’s existence, there are also other questions and you pointed to a few of them. If God exists, has He indeed given mankind any laws/rules to govern our behavior? Has He really given us guidelines to teach us how we should exercise our God-given freedom in a way that is pleasing to Him? If He has, and there are so many different interpretations of the rules and guidelines, which is correct, if any? If no religion is teaching the Truth, does that negate the existence of Truth/God, or does it negate the ability of humans to discern the Truth?
I will agree with LibDem that this should be a personal journey. That’s probably where my agreement with him ends. If you choose to undertake this journey to discover Truth, I hope that it will not be a one-sided journey. If so, it will be a very lonely one indeed. I wish that on no one. The purpose of a journey to discover whether or not God exists shouldn’t be merely to answer an age-old question for oneself once and for all. The reason one seeks the answer to this question is because of the ramifications of a positive answer. If God does exist, as one of His creations, wouldn’t you want to get to know Him? Wouldn’t you want to enter into a deep, personal, two-way relationship with the only One who can love you perfectly, because He is the only One who is Himself True Perfection? Even the best of human loves are imperfect because humans are imperfect. We hurt the ones we love, sometimes deliberately, and often times, without even trying or meaning to hurt them. It is not possible to know perfect love unless a perfect lover exists.
In that regard, I think that it would be a mistake to base your answer to these questions primarily on the thoughts and opinions of others. I can point you to some books just as LibDem. But why not start directly with God, rather than start with what other people say about Him? If you really want to get to know Him, then you should begin your relationship with Him, just as you would with any human that you would like to get to know. Talk to Him. If He doesn’t exist, then you’ll simply be speaking your thoughts to the air, or to yourself. No one will answer. There’s no harm in that, other than feeling a little silly. If He does exist, He will answer. Be patient. If God exists, then He created time and the space-time continuum. He’ll answer in His time, not ours. God is not the drive-thru operator at Dunkin Donuts. Don’t expect to call out your order and then have it delivered to you your way a few minutes later. Just pay attention so that you don’t miss His answer, whenever He chooses to give it. If it’s really God answering you, it won’t be a happenstance or coincidence. It won’t be you answering your own questions and telling yourself it’s God, unless you are comfortable deceiving yourself, or talking yourself into something that you want very badly to be true. That’s how humans work. That’s not how God works. If it’s really Him communicating with you, and He’s really an omniscient, omnipotent Being, then He’s more than capable of figuring out how to communicate an answer to you that you will not mistake as coming from yourself or someone else. Give Him your worries, doubts, and burdens and when you have finished, don’t say another word. Let Him talk. All you have to do is listen. As Scripture tells us, “Be still and know that I Am God.” (Psalm 46:10)
And one other thing: Scripture instructs us not to put God to the test. (Deut. 6:16, & Luke 4:12) So if you intend to ask God to reveal Himself to you, if He indeed exists, you don’t want to look up to the heavens and say something arrogant like, “God, if you exist, set that bush on fire like you did for Moses”, or “God, if you exist, make lightning strike that tree”. Remember that if God really does exist, and He really is a Supreme, Supernatural Being, then the creature has no right to make demands on the Creator. To do that would be to place ourselves on equal footing with God. We’re not. Speak to God from your heart, but always with reverence and humility. In your own words, tell Him that you want to know Him and have a personal relationship with Him if He exists. If you are now doubting everything that you’ve been taught, and you aren’t sure what’s true and real, and what isn’t anymore, tell Him. Never be afraid to give Him your fears, doubts, confusion, and expose all of your weakness and vulnerability to Him. For if He exists, and He is indeed the God of unfathomable Love and Mercy that you’ve heard Him described to be, then He will not use your weakness and vulnerability against you. He will use it only for your good. He only wills goodness and mercy for each soul that He creates, but we often have trouble understanding and accepting that our worldly idea of goodness and mercy is not God’s. His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55: 8-9). If we endeavor to seek His way, He will guide us and teach us His way.
Ultimately, your journey should not be about you. It should be about Him.
Thanks for that insiteful post, Newcomer.
I disagree that “God is not the drive-thru operator at Dunkin Donuts.” I’m surprised you say that. I’ve been taught and believe that God is in everyone and everything. Sometimes the most random things or people can really, really do something, significant or not, that makes me feel so grateful and touched and pleased that that person could be so nice (think random acts of kindness). God is with such people.
For a few examples, I was at church one day recently and it was full, and we were out of hymn books. A lady across the aisle from me and a couple rows over saw that I was without one went out of her way mid-hymn to give hers to me, opened right up to the hymn that was being sung. She not only went out of her way to that, but also to get another one for herself and find where we were in that one.
Last year, I was working at an event at WA that required that all the cafeteria tables be moved to the gym, then moved back to the cafeteria. A couple other people and I helped Al the custodian with this process, and it took us a couple hours. I developed an utmost appreciation for Al and everything he does. Imagine how long he would have been there if it weren’t for us helping him. Also imagine the crap (literally) he has to deal with, his job basically being cleaning up after the students, in spite of the stupid and/or malicious things they do (like leave food and garbage laying around, make scuff marks on the floors, or vandalize things).
Also think of people who let you go first in the checkout line because you’re in a rush or have fewer items than they do. Or the people who slow down to let you into a line of traffic. Or someone who tells you that you dropped money or whatever other thing. Or someone who stops to help you if you’re stranded on the side of the road. Or someone who says something so kind or wise that it really touches your heart. I could go on and on.
What happened to my post? I see my corrections were made to the article, but I reposted the second-to-last paragraph as it should read, but now, there isn’t a paragraph after it.
If you resubmit the paragraph, I’ll fix it. You asked to replace the last paragraph so I replaced the last two. JL
If God does exist, I hope that I will be seen as a kind person who admits his faults, and sincerely apologizes for, and learns by my mistakes. If God does not exist, I will still try to be a kind person who admits his faults, and learns from my mistakes.
A Student,
When I said that “God is not the drive-thru operator…”, I didn’t mean that God doesn’t dwell within a person such as a drive thru operator. I was trying to say that when we pray, we shouldn’t just call out our order like we’re at a drive thru and God’s the operator. It’s not much of a relationship if the only kind of prayers that we pray are requests for ourselves. Another aspect of prayer is commnion with the Lord.
I’m sorry if my analogy didn’t make sense.
That’s not the only thing that doesn’t make sense Newcomer, but apology accepted.
Ahh, I understand now, Newcomer. Thanks for clarifying.
John, I did say the second-to-last paragraph should be: blah. I didn’t mean for the last paragraph to be edited/deleted. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I can’t remember what it said, anyway, so it must not have been terribly important. Probably some sort of conclusion.